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Zionism and Jewish politics debates

Discussion in 'World News & Debate' started by Unreal99, Aug 9, 2017.

  1. ManOnTheCan

    ManOnTheCan Member

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    So you are trying to say that Israel only cares about Jews by claiming that they mistreat Jews?

    What a strange argument.
     
  2. Unreal99

    Unreal99 Member

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    Obviously Israel does not accept black Jews as their equal or one of their own. Should be pretty obvious. Just because someone has full rights in Israel doesn't mean they're going to be treated appropriately or that those rights won't be violated.
     
  3. Abstract.Raze

    Abstract.Raze Member

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    [​IMG]

    EU money?

    It's called the Euro (€)

    We can't have a thread talking about Genocidal Germans?

    It's only known that Hitler dictated a direct order to the German military forces to mass annihilate the Jew community, it was ordered from a sociopath which convinced the German population of taking the lead, the most German population wasn't aware of the following methods, it's was only known that Jews were taken away inside concentration camps and if they refused to follow the orders, they had to pay with their lives.

    Control America with their EU money?

    The Euro is only there to keep Europe unified and avoid confrontations against each other, which in my opinion it isn't any more necessary nowadays, the Dollar is the current international currency.
     
  4. Mr. BoB

    Mr. BoB Member

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    I'm curious about something. What is the average Israeli's opinion on Hezbollah? Are people objective about them? Or do they simply consider them ISIS tier?
     
  5. Eutychius

    Eutychius Moderator Staff Member

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    Am I supposed to care?

    Just because you didn't understand what someone else said, that doesn't mean they are trolling you. You'd know that, but if you were in the position to do so we wouldn't be having this splinter conversation to begin with.

    No, you just don't understand what espionage is. The distribution or selling of classified info to a rival is an act of espionage by the simple definition of the word. If not espionage, how in the name of Zeus would you call that?

    Because apparently I have to explain definition of simple English words so that some select individuals can understand what is being said: By definition, espionage is a series of covert actions conducted by an individual or group of individuals in obtaining and distributing information from another person or group (usually a rival) without the latter's permission.

    The example I brought up earlier with the person who sent the Manhattan project secrets to the Soviets is an example of an insider with prior knowledge of said secrets acting covertly to transfer those secrets to a designated group (for a certain price I presume). By using simple human logic, one can make a one-to-one correspondence with Israel's case. Therefore (again, by definition), what Israel did is literally espionage.

    You claiming that this case had nothing to do with espionage is simply wrong and doesn't make a shrewd of sense.


    I'm not "trying to do" anything. You have made some demonstrably poor and unfactual statements and I have promptly moved to challenge them. It's hard to keep track of that part of the conversation when you are willfully ignoring it, isn't it?

    Those posts were in response to enrico.swagolo and were outside of our conversation. You can't just invoke articles that weren't even brought up in our discussion and pretend you have presented them to me before. They would come under my attention if they were directed towards me, but they weren't, so this accusation of yours is completely unfair.

    Moreover, that is completely irrelevant to 99% of what I said in my other posts. This is the same non-argument you brought up before to which I responded and you casually ignored. It's as much of a red herring as a point can be, if you even know what a red herring means.

    I didn't conflate them at all which proves that you are in fact the one who is reading into the other person's posts poorly. Here is what I wrote in regards to it in the post to which you responded earlier:

    Show me, where did I conflate the stealing of state secrets with giving away weapon tech? Was the use of the word "espionage" too confusing for you? As I've said (again, and you didn't pay attention), I have labelled the giving away of state secrets as "espionage" since the very beginning. This is not alluding to first stealing that same info and then selling it. If you object to my use of the word "espionage", a) read more and b) it amounts to nothing more than semantics which is essentially a misunderstanding on your part.

    I would have read them if they were directed towards me or in any way part of our chain of posts.

    Dunning-Kruger effect, ever heard of it?
     
  6. Unreal99

    Unreal99 Member

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    Now you're just backpedaling:

    This quote proves that you had no clue as to what you were talking about. Israel did NOT covertly take weapon tech, which would certainly be an act of espionage. However, that's not what they did and I never said they did.

    Selling technology that you bought is not espionage.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 11, 2017
  7. F. E. A. R.

    F. E. A. R. Member

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    WAT? Since when were the Germans Genocidal? There were far more worse genocides in human history, than the so called "Holocaust". Germans don't want to control Murica with the EU money and it will never happen. Look up the Federal Reserve and see who were the men behind it. Infact look up all of banking families and see if they're, ahem "German". The German as a nation and race are the best thing that Europe has ever had, too bad everbody is envious of them.

    No they hadn't lived there for "centuries". The German Jews were actually Polish Jews (Khazars) that setteled in eastern europe that were before from central Russia (Khazaria) whom the Russians and Mongols drove out from their ancient homeland. Centuries later when Germany and Russia annexed Poland all of those remained either in one side in Germany and the other in Russia, today's Ukraine. The Germans welcomed the Jews with open arms while the Russians didn't (and I do have to say, the Russians did a good thing). And later on, slowly but painfuly problems emerged on both sides.
     
  8. ManOnTheCan

    ManOnTheCan Member

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    Since they killed a few million Jews. If you don't consider that a genocide then I don't think you're sane enough to have a actual discussion.

    If you want to have an actual discussion, I would suggest you write down what you actually are trying to argue, rather than throwing around insults. In three posts you've gone from:

    1) Criticizing American Jews for supporting Israel and manipulating the US

    [which you abandoned after I showed how every country lobbies the US]

    2) Criticizing Israel for how it treats other countries/non-Jews

    [which you abandoned after I pointed out how non-Jewish Israelis have equal rights, and are doing just fine or even better than many Jewish Israelis]

    3) Criticizing Israel for how it treats Jews

    [which I half-agree with, everyone gets unfair treatment. Ask @enrico.swagolo about how the white russian jews are treated. Or the Yemenite Jews. Or the ethiopian jews. Or the Jews from Arab countries. Or the Holocaust survivors. Or disabled veterans. Etc etc etc]

    It seems you may be forgetting what you are trying to argue for, so I suggest, for the benefit of all of us, you write a clear sentence or two laying out what you want to discuss, and your evidence for it.

    Otherwise it may appear that you are just trying to provoke people.
     
  9. Eutychius

    Eutychius Moderator Staff Member

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    Now you are just completely distorting what I meant. Taking weapon tech information and selling it as in part of the transaction and covertly being the manner in which the action as a whole was done. If I meant that Israel stole it, I would have phrased it just like that as in "Stealing weapon tech information, then covertly taking and selling it".


    No, this quote proves nothing other than you misunderstanding what I said and throwing false accusations at me. You did the same thing with the previous post and you have still failed to point out where I conflated the two since that was the post which you initially accused me of conflating them. How is it that hard to understand?

    No, selling weapon tech you are not supposed to sell undercover against the will of the initial provider and in service of a third party is espionage. Your phrasing of the action is formulated to be misleading and portray the event completely differently. It wasn't some random selling of weapon tech, it was selling it to someone you were not supposed to and in initial secrecy. The fact the transactions surfaced wasn't trivial, they were uncovered later with some effort.

    In the open?

    http://www.newsweek.com/china-israe...ijing-jerusalem-saul-eisenberg-weapons-607117

    https://www.algemeiner.com/2013/12/...ale-of-advanced-military-technology-to-china/

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/jun/13/usa.israel

    It seems that it's you who seems to be quite uninformed on these deals. These transactions between Israel and China were anything but transparent or "in the open". They were very much done is as much secrecy as possible with Israel lying about them and the US having to find out later by its own investigation of Israel's activities. Which kind of makes sense because a rational human being would understand how a country doing something bad knowingly is obviously going to try and cover it up and not make it public knowledge.
     
  10. ManOnTheCan

    ManOnTheCan Member

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    They're probably the most dangerous enemy Israel faces at the moment. It's a very interesting topic for me so feel free to discuss further. I'll just summarize briefly:

    -They fought Israel to a stand-still in 2006. Mainly because Israel easily won the air-war, but they weren't able to make any progress on the ground front. This is a problem with modern first world countries fighting against decentralized militias

    -Iran has added Syria and Iraq to its sphere of influence so there's an easy route to transport military supplies into Lebanon. Previously the US had control over Iraq. Israel has been bombing weapons shipments but from what I hear it's not having much effect.

    -In a conflict between Lebanon and Israel, the US seems to be content with remaining on the sidelines, as long as Russia and Iran also stay out of the conflict. So it's a (US-backed) Israel vs a (Iran and Russia-backed) Lebanon/Hezbollah.

    ISIS is currently failing in Syria, and are mainly a nuisance in the Egyptian Sinai (they shoot some missiles every once in a while but it's not a big deal). While they did some horrible things in Syria and Iraq, they were never an existential threat to Israel. If they had more popular support in Jordan/Egypt/Palestine it would have been a concern. IMO they could have been a legitimate Sunni Arab nationalist movement if they hadn't gone all genocidal and head-choppy.
     
    Mr. BoB likes this.
  11. F. E. A. R.

    F. E. A. R. Member

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    Yeah you're right. The Germans had no better idea than to spread all of their units across Europe to elimante all Jews or take them to back throw them in either in the ovens or the chambers. It's like the myths about Vlad Dracula. I mean come on, they say that the guy ate babies. Am I right?

    On a serious note. You're the one who's actually not sane enough to have an actual discussion. Like I said, there have been many genocides throught history, and there are still ongoing. Tell me about the Nuclear bomb that was launched on Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Ukrainian genocide? The war crimes commited by Churchill and Stalin? The crimes commited by both the British and French Empires in their colonial states?

    During the German part of Poland, the Jews there were rounded up into ghettos. There was a condemnation from the Allies over the Jewish ghetto, and yet it bears no comparison to the many black ghettos in Murica, a country where Negroes where still being lynched and hanged from trees. Britains record on the "human rights" of the subject in her many colonies is likewise cruel and racist. Winston Churchill served in the Boer War when thousands of women and children were left to starve to death in British concentration camps. No one was ever brought to account for the many crimes against humanity in India, Africa and Australia or for the mass drugging of the population of China in the Opium Wars.

    In 1890 the final US army massacre of the "Indians" occurs, at Wounded Knee, South Dakota. By 1924 they're almost completely wiped out. Children that survive are sent to boarding schools for re-education, where teachers are instruced "to kill the Indian in them".

    Like your artificial state Israel has been occupying Palestine since 1947 and hence then has been commiting serious crimes against the Palestinian people. Murica has been waging wars ever since WW1 and hasn't stopped till this day.

    Palestine: “There’s No Conflict, There’s An Illegal Occupation”
    Why Palestine Is Still the Issue
    Anti-Semitism Is Not the Issue; Palestine Is
    Palestine: 50 Years of Occupation
     
  12. Mr. BoB

    Mr. BoB Member

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    What do you think are the chances of Israel going into another war with Lebanon after the Syrian war is over?
     
  13. ManOnTheCan

    ManOnTheCan Member

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    Fairly likely in the next 5 years.
     
  14. Unreal99

    Unreal99 Member

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    The notion that Jews deserved their own land at the expense of current inhabitants, land in which they did not own is flat out preposterous. Native Americans obviously hold claim to the USA, should we grant them land and their own country? History dictates that the way in which Israel was established, simply does not vibe with modern society. These people placed their selves in land they didn't own, disregarded agreements and aggressively expanded while playing the victim when its natural inhabitants fought back. At no point was Israel ever concern with coexisting on land that was handed out to them (more welfare), rather their concern was how they could expand.

    [​IMG]
     
  15. ManOnTheCan

    ManOnTheCan Member

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    I see you've moved on from:

    1) Criticizing American Jews for supporting Israel and manipulating the US

    [which you abandoned after I showed how every country lobbies the US]

    2) Criticizing Israel for how it treats other countries/non-Jews

    [which you abandoned after I pointed out how non-Jewish Israelis have equal rights, and are doing just fine or even better than many Jewish Israelis]

    3) Criticizing Israel for how it treats Jews

    [which you stopped because it makes no sense and goes against everything else you've talked about]

    and now are on to:

    4) Criticizing Israel for it's existence.

    I probably won't be arguing about this with you because evidently your point is not to have an actual discussion and more to rant about Jews in general.

    Suffice to say it seems fairly reasonable for Jews to want a land of their own given the existence of people in power who think like you.
     
  16. Nezekan

    Nezekan Moderator Staff Member

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    The original land Jews proclaimed as Israel, which is Tel Aviv and the area around it never really belonged to Palestine or Arabs for that matter. It changed hands many times between Roman and Persian Empire, then for a very brief period was in Arab hands only to fall to Ottomans soon after and after that Britain took possession of it and literally invited Jews to settle in this land. Tel Aviv is purely built by Jews from scratch and nothingness. No Arabian person had any role in its prosperity or construction. It was barren before that.

    So based on facts of history and various ownership of the land rights, Jews own the said land by every right. Whether it be conquest, first to settle and start farmlands in a barren land or by the right of gift since Britain gifted this land to Jews. Or even historical claim since Jews owned the land very long ago. There is no way you can deny the ownership of this land from Jews.

    What happened was Britain had a contract regarding the land and it expired, meaning it no longer owned those lands. When that happened, Jews claimed the land belonged to them and announced the forming of Israel. The Arabs saw this as an insult and decided to invade and take the land, and you know the rest of the story. Now you can question what Israel did after that war, but Israel did not invade, it was the Arabs. I mean you could argue Israel would eventually invade but its such a hollow argument. If you attack someone and you lose, you pay the consequences. No war has been different in history of mankind.

    But you can also argue the consequences of that attack should not be felt by this generation who still suffer and die horribly. And I would agree with this argument.
     
  17. enrico.swagolo

    enrico.swagolo Member

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    There are too many points to address — and frankly, I don't even know I want to address some of the "Jews control world governments" "arguments" — but I think we can all agree that whether Jews have a legitimate claim to the land or not does not even matter at this point in time.

    It's pretty clear that Israel is not going to stop existing any time soon. Several million people are not going to randomly abandon their homes out of the blue (well, there is Syria, but it's another issue) and move "back" to other ancestral lands... considering that many people at this point in time have been born in Israel, and their ancestors lived on this land for centuries, as well. Israel is not going to stop existing, period.

    So for me, the question is not the existence of the state of Israel. The main problem for me is the political governance, policies, and occupation. Israel has a right/far-right leaning government, implements conservative policies, and does not acknowledge that it mostly occupies the land where Palestinians have been living for centuries; it's building walls and bombing Palestinian civilians.

    My problem with Israel is that despite all its human rights abuse, it run a massive propaganda in the West, proclaiming itself a democracy, an oasis of freedom and justice in the Middle East, while sucking it up to Saudi Arabia and oppressing its citizens and warring with neighbors.

    My problem with Israel is all the people who consider it the land for the Jews and uncritically jacking off to everything Israel does and defending it, even when the state of Israel abuses international law and creates conflicts.

    My problem with Israel is its fake liberal propaganda, saying that they are accepting of LGBT people, but having gays killed at pride by Orthodox radicals and not allowing gay marriage because it is "not traditional."

    My problem with Israel is basically what the country stands for and what policies it passes. And in the past few years I have not seen a single policy which made sense to me. It's a total joke. Ok, you want to be like Saudi Arabia? Then at least stop pretending like you are some sort of progressive heaven, because you are not.
     
  18. Unreal99

    Unreal99 Member

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    Nonsense. America has done nothing but bend over backwards for Israel, the people in power act as though they're in debt to you. No Jewish control the world banks pun intended. Israel is against black Jews and treat them poorly, granting them rights which are constantly abused does not prove anything.

    No one is saying that Israel should not exist anymore, what's done is done, or that Israeli's should leave. Rather, we should stop playing the victim card with Israel and begin to recognize them as the antagonizers that they are.
     
  19. ManOnTheCan

    ManOnTheCan Member

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    Enrico:

    I actually agree with most of your points in principle, but you oversimplify the issues because you've never lived here. In reality things are very complex, and I'd be happy to discuss my thinking on the matter, but you have to come at it from a different angle.

    Starting with "10 REASONS I HATE ISRAEL" is not the best way to have a productive discussion with somebody who actually really likes the country and wants to see it improve. It turns what may be justified criticisms into points for an ideological attack.
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2017
  20. enrico.swagolo

    enrico.swagolo Member

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    I hear you. What you say is valid.

    I am not like the nutjobs who claim that Jews control world governments or that the Holocaust was "karma." But I think I have the right to be angry. And I think my criticism can be worded harshly. Not because I hate Israel, but precisely because I want it improve. Just like when I talk shit about white men, I am not hating white men, even though god knows there is a lot to hate them for. Besides, I am a white man, so... bottom line is that I don't actually spread the violence, I don't rape and kill anyone, and what I say comes from the place of passion and desire for change, not from blind hatred. I use strong language out of passion and not because I am hateful. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯