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Why senior players have to suffer improper abuse by the juniors?

Discussion in 'Dota Chat' started by Mae Shirayuki, Jun 3, 2018.

  1. Mae Shirayuki

    Mae Shirayuki Member

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    Many players who behave badly could not accept the truth of the levels and mistakes in their game-playings. When they are reprimanded by their teammates, they start to move on to another topic where they must always be in the right position, for example when they been killed by an enemies or failed to conduct their mission to push a tower without the MVP of their team, then they will blame the MVP for not joining them. Moreover, many of such players often blame their teammates who are more experienced and skillful than they are. Such situations usually cause disaster to a team and many arguments occurred.

    As a player from the SEA region, in my opinion, many types of communities are the factors or causes for the breakdown of the value of cooperation in a team. Therefore, the composition of the team is easily disproportionate because their thoughts and communication are very different.

    Looking deeper onto the SEA server, I found that many players from the Philippine and Indonesia countries often misbehave in the team and abuse the report quota provided by the developer. This is an unfair situation and needs to be repaired by the developer. Otherwise, a lot of communities from SEA region will misunderstand by thinking the developer is acting biasly against their communities. As mentioned above, although players from the Philippine and Indonesia countries are often said to be countries that carry many badly-behaved players. However, other SEA countries also have a lot of misbehaving players, such as the country of Malaysia, Thailand, Myanmar, etc (others may be better). What I would like to see is, the developer give us some answers to the question I had pasted as the title of this thread because I myself already felt and faced all the sadness and pain caused by those types of communities who badly misbehaving for many years in the region I play. I believe many other regions have similar situation and I don't mean to be racist by sharing my thoughts in this thread (I am mentioning the SEA region because I understand this region better than other regions). Therefore, I am hoping the readers can give their replies by sharing their thoughts with mature views.
     
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  2. Equivocal

    Equivocal Member

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    no more! Join @Equivocal 's COOL GUY CLUB today!
     
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  3. GoLD-ReaVeR

    GoLD-ReaVeR Member

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    The words seem english, but it doesn't feel english...

    Also, you're probably barking up the wrong tree over here. Valve only cares about reddit, even if it ends up killing their own games. Also, people have been complaining for years only to have it fall upon dead ears, so I doubt you'll get more out of them. If they really cared about their game they would've been posting on their dev forums or would've shown up here by now. Reality is they simply don't care and the sooner dota 2 dies the better.
     
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  4. kamukag3e

    kamukag3e Member

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    @Mae Shirayuki:
    First of all, it all come back to demographic, basic human psychology and such.
    In SEA as far as I've heard the majority of the players are teens and kids - basically you have not yet mature but defended by anonymity (assholes) players. They can say and do whatever they like - and most probably will, because they lack parent control at that moment.

    Human psychology in that case is simple - shifting blame, Dunning Kruger, cognitive bias, basic sport/performance adrenaline response. It's really hard to avoid those even if you know you are influenced by them - and if you are teen/kid you don't know those stuff even exist.

    Third - what 'seniority' even mean in a game, where you see very limited information. You don't know their age, nor their number of games - unless they've state it. Even then - it means nothing. Age means nothing in therms of in-game skills and number of games doesn't correlate with skills directly.

    A lot of players are frustrated by how they are put in game with players with very little number of games played (ex. account level), the thing they don't understand is that they are both on the same level - judged by their performance and it's not the rookie's fault how bad they are to be put in the same game.

    About the changes in the system - can't be done, no better alternative for now.
    My best advice is to learn how exactly the system works and try to exploit it to play with more well behaving players and increase your performance, game impact and skill to reach at least reasonable rating levels, where the players at least know what are they doing.
     
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  5. Leadblast

    Leadblast Member

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    While I've never ever played in SEA servers, I will unhesitatingly argue that SEA is not the worst region of the globe when it comes to Dota. Because SA is. Here, we even do exchange commends for reports on certain players.

    I started this ranked season at Guardian 2, mainly because of very bad luck when it comes to teammates. Very bad as in we lost games that we had practically won mere moments ago. I'm slowly clawing my way out of this cesspool, but now that I'm Guardian 5, at the verge of hitting Crusader ranks myself, I've hit a wall of tryhards (so it's as if Crusaders here are playing WORSE than lower Guardian ranks). Big egos everywhere, no one wants to play support, so 5 hard carry teams are the new norm, no one wants to ward, hell no one even buys a courier.

    And this shit is only slightly better than the average Turbo game here. Now I declare Turbo games in SA to be the absolute worst.

    Misbehaving players? Nope. You don't talk about misbehaving players here. Virtually the whole community misbehaves like that. "Misbehaving players" are the norm, not the exception. The chat rooms for each capital city are usually filled with trolls and spambots as well.

    I chuckled when the Dota staff sometime said at at blog.dota2.com that "our goal is for the community to moderate themselves" (or something to the effect of that). The average age of the Dota 2 player here, if my estimation is correct, somewhere about 15 or 16 years old teens. Literally pre-pubescent teens who can't even control themselves, much less be in position to earn respect from older players like me.

    As I've said, we exchange commends for reports. If you're part of the opposite team, that has just defeated my own team, despite my best efforts, I will offer you a commend if you just report this asshole support who stole all my creeps and never ever warded I was playing with. This Drow or this Sniper that fed way too much (yep). This Axe idiot who went Shadowblade instead of Blink Dagger. This fingerless Pudge guy who only could hit two Hooks in the whole match. This LC who gifted the enemy carry more than 50 Duel damage. And so on.

    In SA, the bad can and will always get worse.
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2018
  6. MrFrank

    MrFrank Member

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    How do you determine "senior" and "junior" players? Besides looking up your sphincter, that is.

    Oh boy, as much as I like to absolutely piss on the shitter that is DC how can I hate it so when it delivers absolute gold like this.
     
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  7. kamukag3e

    kamukag3e Member

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    @Leadblast:
    The average age of a DotA 2 player is estimated to be around 19-22 years.
    If you put that the age of one of the most populated server (SEA) is slightly lower then that, then by logic you can safely say that in other servers the average age is slightly higher.
    Your observation skills are once again off-point.

    People do indeed act childishly and some basic stuff are easier to state as immature behavior, but that doesn't mean the player acting like it is not past his teen years himself.

    Few of my friends despite being already full fledged university graduates seem and behave like children in a game of DotA.
    So you have to understand a lot of things to be able to accurately pin-point the age of a person via internet.

    IMO you are around 26-28 years old yourself, but I base that on multiple posts which you lay here, and trying to guess it during a game would be way more inaccurate.
     
  8. Mae Shirayuki

    Mae Shirayuki Member

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    Juniors are those who just started Dota 2, less knowledge about the games, and like to find problem during game-playing (immature). Senior? Vice-versa.
    A man who is 30 can be a junior and a boy who is 14 can be a senior in Dota 2 because of his professionalism.
    Age should not be the factor to be compared.
     
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  9. kamukag3e

    kamukag3e Member

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    @Mae Shirayuki:
    Thanks for the clarification.
    But in that regard:
    Juniors and seniors can't be placed in a same game unless they are friends (and in a party) or a custom lobby.

    In the ranked/normal games players are put by their respective rating, thus they are considered equally skilled.
    There can't be a junior/senior in that kind of games.

    But I do think that you are somewhat searching for mature people trying to learn the game and the lack of those in your games.
    The thing is - most players can give advice, but only good social people (which don't usually play DotA) can formulate the advice properly.
    Example for bad form of advice:
    "it's 35 minute and you still don't have BKB versus Invoker you piece of shit"
    Example for a good:
    "A BKB would fare good versus that Invoker"

    Then you have the bad advises as well, plenty of players were giving completely wrong kind of tips which are counter-productive in some of the games I've played. Like how said item is bad or how I should be fighting or not farming in some spot, when that would do more harm than good.
    In normal games (non-ranked) with a party of 4 I'm easily playing with 1,000-2,000 rating players in my team, who are unaware that they are teamed up with a party. Trying to get the leadership by giving orders and if not followed insulting, while we're coordinating as 4 and winning the game hard, while he is making a tantrum like some junior school kid.

    If by chance you consider a player with more games to be 'senior' to a player with less, then you have a bad understanding of how different the learning curve of people can be.
     
    Mae Shirayuki likes this.
  10. Mae Shirayuki

    Mae Shirayuki Member

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    I guess you thought I was mentioning about the number of matches played by the players when I said "just started Dota 2" for the juniors. The gap between every match played by every player can be different. A player who just registered his Steam account and started Dota 2 can play many matches in a day compared to a player who already joined Dota 2 since months or maybe years ago. For example, a player with 5 months membership has 1000 matches while another player with 1 year membership has around 600 matches. This shows that I am not considering player with more games to be senior. There are many players who just started Dota 2 and learn very slow and little about the game mechanics, items, etc even though they already played many games. I do not want to say they are "stupid" or "noob" because it is very insulting.

    Things are getting a little bit complex when those players who just started Dota 2 never try to adapt themselves to the game environment by giving the best cooperation in the team. They think they are professional because they play a lot of games compared to those who learn fast and know a lot about Dota 2 stuffs! What is interesting is that they use quota reports as "weapons" to threaten the seniors when the seniors try to rebuke their mistakes in the games. I don't feel good to use the words of "s" or "n" but maybe I can say they always unable to make a good decision when the seniors rebuke.
     
  11. GoLD-ReaVeR

    GoLD-ReaVeR Member

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    Noob is not an insult, it literally just means novice. And you can call the average dota player stupid, because that's what they are :cat:

    As for those that don't adapt/never get better, those are called scrubs. Especially when they talk a big game.

    But again, wrong tree over here...
     
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  12. kamukag3e

    kamukag3e Member

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    @Mae Shirayuki:
    Well, then you can see that seniority in DotA is very arbitrary matter.
    Games played, registered date, age of the player, rating etc.
    Basically - it doesn't really matter at all.

    Now about when some players are using threats - they actually are powerless, that was my point about 'learning the mechanics'.

    You see, a player have just 3 reports per week and get more only if he report someone and that one is punished, which requires a lot of other players to report him in the same week.
    What that mean is that unless a player receive 10-15 reports per week, no one who commit a report against him will be able to use that report again.
    Then by that logic, unless you frustrate multiple players in a multiple games in a row, they won't be able to do that to a lot of players, unless they bluff their way with 0 available reports.

    Keep in mind that multiple reports from a party count as just 1 report, but take the number committed. Meaning that a party of 2 or 3 can sign 2 or 3 reports to you, but you will actually receive only 1.
    Enemies reporting you can only result in a 'mute' status as a punishment so you shouldn't be afraid of receiving one from the enemy.

    So avoid stacking reports, but don't be afraid of them that much.

    Increasing personal behavior score will also most likely get a player out of the reach of such pity players, so you can learn how to use this as well in your advantage.

    All-in-all communication is overrated IMO. Few pings (not the PING-PING-PING-PING-PING kinda of thing) and simple arrow drawing at the map are all I need to communicate mostly. A sentence or two to explain a bigger plans of 'what I will do' and not about 'what my teammates have to do' is needed in some rare cases.
    So you barely need to enter dialog with teammates most of the time to get to the point of threats and insults.
    Another thing is to mute any player who is writing unnecessarily things, no matter their topic - unless you are interested in that and especially important if they start becoming 'bossy' or insult other players - no matter how justified that seem.
    Plenty of times seen support blaming the carry or the other way around for misplays when it's not about being a garbage player, more like the enemy have better luck, coordination or w/e and were able to get the upper hand in that engagement, further insults are just lowering team morale and similar, while a good player just put it into the past and try to solve the problem at hand.

    @GoLD-ReaVeR:
    'Noob' is insults which comes from the word 'newbie' which means novice.
    So while have similar meaning it is indeed an insult and most commonly used as one.
     
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  13. Mae Shirayuki

    Mae Shirayuki Member

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    I know the reports given and multiple reports from a party. But problem is, 4 different parties who play as solo still can threaten a single player who plays a game without any argument. Lets say, a single player who play as the MVP of the team but he requires a lot of farms because he is the hard carry. Bad thing is, the teammates in the team never assist him in the farms by warding or stacking the neutral creeps. When the 4 solo players plan to breakdown the enemy's tower and fail (plan fail and been killed by enemies), then they will blame the solo player who is working hard at the back for the farms he needed. At the end, the 4 players really work together and abuse the quota of reports given to them. I am using one situation like that because I had played in many matches like that. At the beginning, many of my friends who play in the region of SEA told me they were facing many such unfair situations but I never trust them. Now, it is true.
     
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  14. Anukali-kun

    Anukali-kun Member

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    I played classic doto 1 since before and now playing dota 2 since 2015.

    SEA was hell back then as you are on lower mmr but still it doesn't have any good changes since now.
     
  15. Leadblast

    Leadblast Member

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    Generally age is not directly related to how good or skilled a player is. BUT, it does play a factor about maturity, and attitudes, or at least it should.

    Age does account for something, like for example I started playing Dota back in 2008 or 2009 when it still was a Warcraft 3 map. That's 9 or almost 10 years ago, I couldn't have learned THIS much about this game if I had started playing for the first time 1 or 2 years ago. But not only I have a bunch of experience, I am also far more mature by virtue of being 37 years old lol. I don't rage that much over trivial facts like who wants the mid lane or that. I still insult really bad players, I still blame them, but I never start feeding or throwing the courier at the enemy team or throwing the match in other ways. I still cooperate. I absolutely hate to ward and buy dust and shit when I picked a carry (not when I picked support, because that's what I was supposed to do), but sometimes, if the game was not lost yet, hell someone's gotta do it. Just yesterday I had 2 really bad ranked games, that I had to carry in a way, by telling my raging teammates to chill and started buying wards and gem and stuff. In both of these games the enemy team had a Slark picking off my team and other enemies with Shadowblades and supports with Glimmer and stuff. The solution was simple, yet no one wanted to do it (only one of these games we had a hero fitted for support, a Veno, but he never ever wanted to support).

    The average player here is that kind of stupid. I've seen players with far better mechanical skills than me, but they still don't know how to pick, counterpick or even build their hero. One of the matches I described above, our mid was a Weaver, he died like twice against the enemy mid alone, and lost his t1 tower soon after. Then I took a look at his items and skill build, and understood it all: this noob ass Weaver (ranked Crusader, so higher than me, somehow) had maxed his passive first, and only had 1 point on Shukuchi. Had I been 15 years old like I'm sure he was himself, I would have flamed the hell out of him, but I had to keep playing for the sake of winning and raising my own rank above shitheads like him. Eventually we won, but holy shit. I hate stupids.
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2018
  16. GoLD-ReaVeR

    GoLD-ReaVeR Member

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    Whether it's used as an insult is irrelevant, noob is a completely valid term to refer to a novice. It is in itself not an insult.
     
  17. Leadblast

    Leadblast Member

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    "Pig head" is not an insult either, but it definitely can be used as one. Context makes the difference.

    But hey, I can't help but insult some of the most outrageous retards. They make all the road that a game is long and painful.
     
  18. ManOnTheCan

    ManOnTheCan Member

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    Me too. I'd put all my money into Apple, Facebook, and Bitcoin and become rich.
     
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  19. Abdulink

    Abdulink Member

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    @Leadblast I find it hard to believe you're in the guardian bracket. Something doesn't add up.
     
  20. Leadblast

    Leadblast Member

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    As I said, extreme bad luck with teammates. I remember most of the calibration matches were just bad, I lost in most of them.

    I was told the MMR changed from how it used to be though. I must have started at 600 or something cause that's where I was when I realized MMR still existed. Now I'm a bit over 1,100 but I've hit a wall of retardation and my win streaks have come to a halt.