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What is balance?

Discussion in 'Meta-Game Discussion' started by mapdesigner, Aug 9, 2017.

  1. invul_nerable

    invul_nerable Member

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    To be honest. I think things are rather situational in the argument of PA vs Lion. However, a core Lion vs PA mid something rare to see, I lean more on to Lion because 1) He has disables. 2) Disables make it easier for gank rotations. 3) He sucks mana.

    Although what Hyperion said is true,(and also true in reverse since PA has slow) Lion can easily screw up PA's last hits by his disables, though it is not something that is spammable(unlike PA's dagger) the sucking of mana part is what gives him the edge. It renders any effort for stifling dagger last hit useless if you sucked all his mana and a magic stick can almost always save you from the issues you will have from stifling harass early on. But this really is a battle of attrition.
     
  2. Oesile

    Oesile Member

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    In the Lion vs PA matchup, I'd say that before Lion reaches level 2 mana drain that PA has spammed more than enough daggers on him to push him out of the lane.
    At level 1, PA dagger does 77.5 physical damage without any items. Lion has 6.19% physical damage resistance at level 1, meaning he takes 72.70275 damage per dagger, every 6 seconds. Lion's 'great' harass is 80 magic damage (so 60 damage) and a 1.4 second stun every 12 seconds (which is 1 hit in, Lion has at level 1 exactly 1 base attack time).
    A blight stone or an Orb of Venom really hurts (blight stone in particular puts Lion at -1 armor, which is bad news; he now takes about 81.9 damage per dagger).

    Keep in mind that Lion has 520 hp at level 1, the same as Crystal Maiden. His movement speed is also below average at 290 ms, and also making him one of the slowest heroes in the game (well, he still has 15 ms over CM, but it's still horrible). At least his strength gain isn't godawful at 2, but it's still bad (PA is super squishy and she has much more armor + evasion, whilst having higher base strength and a neglibly higher str growth than Lion at 2.15).
    My point is, Lion is squishy af. He can harass, but he can't take it.

    While PA is melee and Lion is ranged, PA has 3.15 more armor than him at level 1 (significant) and being melee means you can buy stout shield. Midlane is in my experience also the lane where you can most easily make up for range disadvantage by utilizing the ramps and creep equilibrium.
    I dunno, I see PA spamming Lion chock full with daggers, and once she gets blink strike, Lion kinda needs to hold unto impale. If he gets mana drain at level 2, he's easy to gank. If he doesn't get mana drain at 2, the impale spam ends here.

    After level 2 mana drain, a magic stick still gives PA enough killing potential if someone comes to gank said Lion, or an escape if she gets ganked. PA can be a very oppressive hero in the midlane, and the reason she isn't an actual mid is just because she can't waveclear- but neither can Lion.
     
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  3. flamegod0

    flamegod0 Member

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    I would even say the same for most range mid heroes, especially the one with weak early levels. Although the main demerit of PA is she only give damage/slow to one target in the mid-game while other usually have more utility. (if we are talking about a broader spectrum instead of 1v1 lion PA)
     
  4. kamukag3e

    kamukag3e Member

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    @Oesile:
    Just a side-note, 'before Lion reach level 2' and "spam enough daggers", you understand that at mid-lane - level 2 comes after the first wave dies, unless one of the heroes is able to deny the whole wave, which is not really easy, unless the player out skill his opponent by large margin. So that's less than 20 seconds.

    Also, having Blink is not going to win you automatically the lane, yes PA become a threat unless Lion keeps a disable to prevent such unfavorable trade.
    Yet PA has very little mana pool (around 240), while even first level of mana drain can sap 100 mana.
    Few daggers and 2 mana drains and PA will be out of mana and Lion will not be forced to safe his Impale for defensive purposes.

    I do agree that PA got the better trading possibilities and especially in comparison to other heroes, yet it's not that easy to win the lane as some people stated - it still requires good play from her end and some mistake from Lion.

    At level 6, Lion has the option to just one-shot PA after slight harass in preparation and a rotation for PA against Lion has significantly less chance of success in comparison to the other way around.


    One more time to point out - for those who didn't get the idea of panzerknack (looking at you Hyperion1O1) it's not about PA vs Lion, it's about everyone looking at PA as a core and Lion as a support and no other roles possible for them.

    Good PA has a good chance of getting the lane even, little chance to win it and slightly above average to lose it (at least to my opinion). Yet a lot of other heroes will lose against Lion or a lot of other supports for that matter really easy and very little (with good sustain and durability) can get the lane even - which can favor them if they have better late-game (for example - Dragon Knight and Alchemist). The reason they are not picked is because their power-curve hit early, but does not scale that well into the mid-late game. Which is the reason some heroes are popular middle.


    On a side note Pudge right now scale really well into the late-game and he did not recover his popularity on that position.
    Some thoughts on this topic ?
     
  5. RisaStoleMyHart

    RisaStoleMyHart Moderator Staff Member

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    Everyone in this thread knows the concept of panzerknack's post, except it's retarded because it has no pragmatic value. Anything can work in pubs, but unless you're just a contrarian, there is no denying Lion's kit isn't flexible enough to play core. It doesn't matter if Lion can 'win' lane (which i still doubt) because he doesn't win games. The same reason why no one is dumb enough to argue for support PA, PL, SF etc.

    Long time jack-of-all-trades heroes like Mirana can go roamer, offlane, mid and safe-lane carry. Roamer because Arrow for gank, can also secure a bit of gold and exp against big creeps. Carry because she has decent attack range & animation and superb Agi gain (3.6 per level).

    Support WK in competitive only started when the huge AoE MS and AS slow was implemented for Reincarnation. Earthshaker can go core because he has solo kill potential with just blink > shadow blade. Totem gives him huge burst without needing to buy an immediate damage item. VS, Kunkka, Gyro, WR, Lina, Silencer, Sky, Leshrac, Visage, Warlock, Naga, Abaddon, SS etc are all heroes who can be played both as a non-conforming support/core, and there's enough logic and explanations for why.

    It has nothing to do with some pretentious wisdom - "Try thinking about this discussion outside the frame of how people choose to play the game (this will be difficult because it's so pervasive and ingrained), and ponder the same questions." :cat:
     
  6. kamukag3e

    kamukag3e Member

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    @RisaStoleMyHart:

    Yes but we're talking about pubs in here, one more thing - Lion was played numerous times in the past as core, and PA and Sven were recently played as support in competitive environment. Riki was considered core for a lot of years, before his orb of venom and some other changes open his path as roamer.

    You think that Lion is bad core, well I would call him mediocre at best, which can still net you wins here and there if you understand the game and read the enemy lineup. Lion can actually punish greedy lineups with rushed Dagger into Scepter and can really deal easily with a lot of the popular middle heroes in public (namely Shadow Fiend, Tinker, Ember Spirit and that pesky Arc Warden).

    WK was still played as core a lot years after his ultimate was changed and I was laughing stock in public games and small tournament for picking and playing him as #4 and roamer.
    Earth Shaker has the same potential nearly from his creation and was just recently played as a core, despite few public games once in a while which were considered as a 'joke'.

    So you see, players still tend to not see the potentials, look at heroes by their prism of understanding and are ready to swear, insult, report and even intentionally throw games where they see something they do not like or understand at all.
    That's the reason I really liked Clan Iraq, his builds were innovative and full of his imagination, some of them were not optimal, some of them work in very specific cases, while some of them were pretty legit and very powerful - but the 'surprise' factor is still there anyway and a lot of players (especially in DotA), are brain-freezing when encountering something for the first time and don't know how to react - which eventually lead to a win even while under-performing with the said hero.
     
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  7. flamegod0

    flamegod0 Member

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    Well. Pro matches/players do form the trend. It is quite understandable that a not famous person doing an unorthodox approach would result into a flame-lure.
    However, when a famous person does that, a new trend (either for a while or long time) emerged. Some heroes even got more popular because of pro-players pub game on youtube. After more people tries that build, we can take conclusion whether it is effective for the meta or not (because of the sample size factor). That is my take about how memebuild turns into legit build (like BM QoP at early 7.00).
     
  8. Oesile

    Oesile Member

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    I second this. Off-meta picks really aren't that complicated at all. I could argue that Necrophos still is a great support (even better than ever before really), but I do understand that he isn't that great when compared to other supports in his position, unless you find a once in the blue moon scenario where he is a great pick (say, against really tanky teams where heartstopper and scythe are bonkers) but not enough to warrant being a core. But most of the time he won't be a good support pick at all, hence 'bad support, just play him core if needed'.
    There is always some bias involved, but when you encounter something that works that bias goes away until you understand it better no?

    I played him as a roamer the moment you got perma invis at level 1, like a knock off bounty hunter w/ silence. I'm sure many others did the same.

    But is it really when it's meta within 2 days of the patch?
    While being played by pro's made it popular, so did the idea of level 25 blademail when it was a really small part of the build (unlike mjollnir). In the same way, against everyone's bias on how Ember should be played, he turned immediately in a magic nuker (I doubted it at first, thinking it would be a meme, but after seeing it at work once it was clear that it was good and that veil had incredible value).
     
  9. flamegod0

    flamegod0 Member

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    yea. when it is proven effective + popular enough, it is out of the memebuild category. like the WK radimjolbmrefresh+(agh now) stuff. I forgot the nickname for that build. I guess the bm qop is quite a bad example because BM is only the finishing touch.

    For the ember, IIRC, prior 7.00 ember pick rate was at his lowest point (kind of lazy to check for truth) and no one does the magical build (especially using veil). So when they introduce the talent tree + buff the remnant scaling, the build suddenly become viable. the rapid change from meme to meta, in this case, is reinforced by hard buff by Mr Icy I think.

    MOM AM is still a legit memebuild tho (legit meme, not legit viable). especially with current MOM. such meem.
     
  10. kamukag3e

    kamukag3e Member

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    @Oesile:
    What you say is true, but there are plenty of unorthodox builds and others which are totally legit and not used at all right now.
    Not because they are bad, just because the heroes are not popular or other heroes are considered powerful or 'meta' right now.

    Anyway, with the recent boom of Necro, Phantom Lancer become a much more valuable pick as he is both his and Pugna's counter. On the other hand, Jyro is counter to all 3 of them, yet his pick-rate is abysmally low.

    My point was that a lot of heroes are seen as their 'most used position' and 'most popular build' on the pro scene in the most recent games by the majority of the players and any deviation would result in insults, griefing, rage and a lot of people consider it reportable offense. While their effectiveness is actually really high, yet a lot of builds which are used (as mentioned in this thread or others) are considered legit, while being completely useless or with very low impact (like LC jungle, BH with physical damage item and such).
     
  11. Oesile

    Oesile Member

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    This is also correct. Especially at different MMR's, where entirely different metas exist. Top tier picks in high mmr's can be awful in low mmr- that and balance and builds aren't static, because they need to account for many different variables on a game by game basis. I suspect we both agree on this.

    Honestly, I feel like dota is almost the opposite in this- here we have the biggest amount of leeway out of any other competitive multiplayer game I've seen. I've seen Manta style safelane bounty hunters in a purge ranked game, to show how absurd some builds at times are, yet they are very well tolerated by the community. As long as you're not flaming anyone, or directly griefing your team, you can play most everything you want. I've played CK, Bloodseeker, Weaver, Kunkka and Riki support before they were meta anywhere (and indeed I did not do great with them at the time) but my team didn't bother flaming me at all.

    On the other hand, when people perceive something to be a bad matchup and you pick it anyway, they will flame you all game. Even if it's actually a favorable matchup (Think WK vs AM; Armlet into fucking his team up before AM even finishes battlefury, yet your team immediately thinks it's over at the picking screen). In this case explaining what your plan is beforehand will help, unless you lose in which case you'll still be flamed.

    Pff, no boots linkens rush on weaver and medusa are the only valid builds
     
  12. kamukag3e

    kamukag3e Member

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    @Oesile:
    When you put it that way - it's true. But that's only when comparing with other MOBA games, where meta is really strict and the player base average IQ even lower than DotA's.

    Also - picking heroes and items then the most popular can a lot of times goes unpunished, yet it really depends on the players in your game and the avg. MMR of course. But it's still a bad point for the community for talking about someone else's choice of style or hero.

    People making decisions for someone are really irritating me, especially when the decision is obviously dumb.
    The proper way of treating it is to give him advice and something like "try it if you wish, or keep it in mind for your next game".
     
  13. r0xo

    r0xo Member

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    Just a small bit of nit picking but that isn't the case. The real significant slow buff happened after TI3, I believe it was when he was changed from Skeleton King to Wraith King, which was end of 2013. I know that he didn't have it too long before TI3 for sure. And it was a bit before TI4 that EG made him a popular 4, Zai had something like a 18 out of 18 game winning streak with him I think. So more like half a year in the pro scene at least.

    Unless you are talking about that initial change to introduce an AoE slow and not the later more significant one that we have today. In which case I believe you are right, can't remember when that was first introduced but it must have been ages ago.
     
  14. kamukag3e

    kamukag3e Member

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    @r0xo:
    Well, the additional slow was added before the TI3, but it was not as powerful as it is now (only movement speed slow), also his Mortal Strike was not implemented and thus he had a regular critical which was not that good to farm neutrals.

    Anyway, my point was that WK was viable #4 around the time you are talking about "after TI3" and he was played in the competitive scene as such. But yet his position as carry was not hindered unless the meta favors AM, PL which are nightmare to deal with, Invoker and clock or other heroes which were overpowered and were heavily nerfed afterwards.

    So he is viable #4 but yet the public games he is considered only viable as carry, the same goes for other heroes such as Sven, who is one of the best supports for casting carries (namely Leshrack), because he can start from there, give huge benefits in the lane as his power in the first 3 levels is really big and slowly transition into physical damage dealer with the help of his team due to proper coordination - if the game requires it.

    But trying to pull off something like that in public games would brand you 'idiot', 'noob' and the 'wtf [insert-hero-name] support, wtf is this shit' comments by the real idiots in the game.


    Had an experience just recently, while watching a friend of mine playing DotA in 2,000 MMR.
    One player picked Dazzle for middle and his teammates start their autistic screeching, while all veterans know that he is decent middle, especially against some lanes. He completely dominated the game and crush his opponents at that particular game, and I bet the player against him had no idea what to do or react, because - you know - Dazzle is support.