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what does morphling lack?

Discussion in 'Meta-Game Discussion' started by mapdesigner, Dec 5, 2017.

  1. mapdesigner

    mapdesigner Member

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    Hello,

    This hero has:
    1. nukes
    2. Heal
    3. Blink
    4. Move speed
    5. Armor
    6. Attack Speed
    7. Stun
    8. Mana
    even anti mage doesnt have as much physical resistance lol. I guess his only weakness is vs lina leon team (not sure if there is other nuking ultimates which can end him before his heals)

    anyway, it seems unfair to me that he can do all of this. normally each hero has something he lacks. lina doesnt have that much damage or HP. am doesnt have that much agi/armor (and is also melee). he doesnt have 2 blinks. they also dont have reliable stuns apart from abyssal. even then I think morph has more nukes than lina/leon.

    now which hero has more nukes than morphling? I dont know, probably CM ultimate if lucky or skyrat. I still doubt it though I think morph nukes are better cuz faster.

    Edit: I guess he likes crit/bash/evasion passives :D
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2017
  2. justsightseeing

    justsightseeing Member

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    early game presence..

    movespeed is negligible even if you consider going full agi. esp since his base ms is extremely low.

    stun and nuke are interchangeable, cant have both at the same time..

    why he has mana? every hero has mana and IIRC he's quite mana intensive hero.




    also he lack AOE presence
     
  3. mapdesigner

    mapdesigner Member

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    How doesnt he have early game if he has nuke?

    Also morph dunt cost mana anymore. So he can have both on just 3 seconds if he use properly.
     
  4. Oesile

    Oesile Member

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    Hooo boy, you're gonna love Karl.
     
  5. mapdesigner

    mapdesigner Member

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    kael* doesnt have any single target apart from cold snap. he also doesnt have hard disable. am with aghs gunna rekt him.

    wait, kael is actually imba lol (only becuz 3 sec cd for tornado), so I think we can partially agree.
     
  6. invul_nerable

    invul_nerable Member

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    One way to find out is you play him yourself. I dont know what really lacks about him(aside from the lost mobility that his old ult provided), but one thing is for sure. Ill stay away from low winrate heroes.
     
  7. mapdesigner

    mapdesigner Member

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    any time I random am or morphling I go on wicked feed or ghost like. I just cant watch my team mates battle and not join. and I end up dying first even if we wun team fight lol xD

    but they say its my mistake as to why I joined in first place. but then again this doesnt disprove that these heroes are imba. It just proves I dont like them.
     
  8. Oesile

    Oesile Member

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    No, I actually don't think either of them are overpowered by design, nor that it's unfair that they can do so many various things. In fact, even if morph/invoker may receive a nerf, he's still going to be capable of doing all these things you've listed.

    Like @justsightseeing stated, Morph has bad early game presence, where his only real nuke is Waveform (albeit it's a pretty decent one), and he's had that one for years. The only reason Morphling is now serviceable in the early game is thanks to morph not costing mana, but keep in mind his int gain was nerfed.

    The nuke/stun skill isn't that great until you max it and have high agi, and to abuse it like you mention you need to max morph as well. That, and Waveform being a skill that also needs to be maxed pretty soon means Morph can't do nearly as many things as you mention early on.

    AM is also a counter to mages, and farms much faster than Morphling does. Not having the best stats is supposed to be AM's weakness as he's always 1 or 2 items ahead in the midgame.
    As for being Melee, it's obviously an advantage for Anti-mage here. Morphling has 350 range, as shitty as it gets for a ranged hero; if he were melee, you could get items like Vanguard, Basher, or heck why not both, Abyssal blade.

    Neither does Morphling.

    You're probably tired of me always disagreeing with you (trust me, it's just my nature and nothing personal. I'm putting this out there because some users felt like I always came to shoot their ideas down, and I actually enjoy your threads as I like thinking about the game, while most other threads usually about matchmaking or something..) so I'll just answer each point 1 by 1:

    He's got 1 strong early game nuke that costs a metric ton of mana, and a nuke that scales off of his agi- which isn't going to be that high early on, and even when going full agi, the scaling is 100 + 1.0/1.5/2.0/2.5x his agility. While it's okay at it's first rank 1, (not really as 100 damage nukes are also bad early game) it also costs a lot of mana especially if you want to use the stun too.
    Cool thing about it, is that the damage is based on your agility on impact, not on launch. So you can't use it and morph strength after (which is what you'd want to do), but you can shoot it out and morph agi for extra damage.

    Technically not a heal, however I do agree that currently morph has a very abusable mechanic where if he keeps shifting his agility down after he's already at 1 hp, he's going to 'gain' hp when morphing back to strength. (Hard to explain for me in words- basically he always gains and loses the same %hp when morphing, except when he's at 1 hp where he can't lose any hp anymore, but he can still gain the hp he hasn't lost due to being on 1 hp back).
    With a bottle you have insane sustain early on, but once you get hp items this cheap tactic falls away.

    Which is also your main nuke in early to midgame, and again costs a ton of mana. And it has an 11 second cooldown, meaning unlike AM's for example, you're capable of catching a morphling. With his old ultimate, he was the most slippery hero in the game.

    280 movement speed is below average, and that +% movement speed from agi doesn't amount to that much.

    High armor, but low health. High health, but low armor. Or decent armor and decent health. It's literally a trade-off of stats.

    And base damage I guess. But it does leave him at low health.

    Single target stun only that is disjointable, though it's decently long and has a knockback. Early on it's at best a tp canceller, and the knockback can save the enemies you want to stun when using it offensively (so it's nowhere near as good as a supports stun, like say Impale).

    He absolutely doesn't, which goes to show how extreme his mana problems were before morph mana cost was removed. His int gain is 13 + 1.1. I repeat: 13 + 1.1. The only hero with lower mana than him is Troll Warlord, with 13 + 1.1, and that guy only has two spells that cost 50 mana and a 75 mana ultimate.
    Chaos Knight, a hero that's notorious for having no mana when you need it ever, has an int gain of 16 + 1.2, and his spells cost 140, 50 and 275 (ult with 145 sec cooldown) respectively.

    Compare that to morph who needs to sustain a 165, two 80 and a 125 (ult) mana cost skillset, and they are not that far off at all, especially considering ck's ult can't be used often due to mana anyway, and I can in no way allow anyone to say that Morphling has mana. Because fuck no he doesn't. He's spending for 1 spell the same troll warlord spends for his entire kit, while getting having an amazing 1.2 more mana than him per level.

    Old Morphling's first item used to always be linkens, because this celestial embodiment of water is so ironically thirsty for mana, that he'd otherwise be unable of using morph and his spells together ever. Now he's still thirsty as hell, but we can actually use his spells for once.

    So yeah, while I agree that Morphling can do a lot of things, he can't do them all at once; he's constrained by his mana in the early to midgame, can't be tanky and do dps at the same time (hence he needs to morph constantly), can't nuke someone down and escape because one of his nukes is his escape, requires quite some skill imho to get the most damage while not dying, and is hardcountered by silences. As well as spirit vessel (yep it works and it's amazing vs morph, just care it doesn't get dispelled).
     
  9. justsightseeing

    justsightseeing Member

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    since when nuke = good early game?

    things that i consider matters for early game:
    1. health sustain, morp has basic regen value, no skill for regen. (-)
    2. range, more range = less susceptible to harras, more chance to harras enemy. morp range is pathetic. (-)
    3. escape, avoid death and gold loss to early game, morp have waveform. (+)
    4. tankiness, same as above, avoid death at the cost of going back to fountain. morp have morp. (+- since it need lv 3-4 to make huge difference)
    5. attack dmg, contesting lasthit. morp base attack dmg is bad. (-).
    6. nuke, out harras / kill secure. morp have waveform; adaptive doesnt do enough dmg as nuke early game. (+).
    7. disable. able to participate in lane ganks/ countergank / counter overextend enemy to avoid death / turn it into enemy kill. adaptive strike early doesnt provide it. (-)
    8. Mana/manaregen, for harassing. his nuke manacost is big and his manapool is bad. can possible dish out 2 time before he run out of mana. (-)

    tell me how above points i make translate to good early game? or feel free to retort my argument about what morp has for his early game.
    compare to necro / qop / puck / ogre / nyx / brood / LD / sven / centaur / jugg you will see their early game is actually better if we use the
    points i mention above.

    also dont get me wrong, morp is good hero and absolute beast if he able to farm, he have 1shot capability with durability and decent sustain via ult. but his early game is far worse than other traditional carry.
     
  10. BloodRampage-

    BloodRampage- Member

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    removing manacost is ok (good that hes not hardcountered by am/pl anymore), but having morph work during disables is pretty damn retarded, especially given the ridiculous morph rate


    but anyway comparing this hero's nukes to supports like cm/sky is a joke -- int supports are dota are almost literally defined as 'heroes that are supposed to suck every department - armor, hp, right clicks, spell, manacost, cds', you-name-it... so theres no point in these comparisons

    before someone jumps on me again waving cm's pub winrate % or w/e... yes int supports have decent winrates (mostly because of some decent early teamfight presence and situationally ultra-cheesy/unreliable ultimates), but theyre still ultra gimped a fuck heroes with almost zero item build variations
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2017
  11. kamukag3e

    kamukag3e Member

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    To give additional weaknesses to morph, which both Oesile and justsightseeing forgot to mention - Morph has no real AoE potential (his Waveform is just a single spell and can't clear mass illusions, summons or multiple heroes which are cores).

    So while he can burst down a single enemy (or severely hurt him if he is really bulky), he has no way of dealing with those illusion carries which rely on mobility (like AM, PL, Chaos Knight, Naga Siren) and can't actually fight multiple cores - let's pretend that the enemy has picked 3 or 4 carries.
    At the late-game he can deal with one easily, and then his team (consisting of non-scaling heroes) will be cleared and when 3 cores jump on you - you just die. While heroes like AM, PL, Luna, Sven etc. can clear multiple heroes and are completely independent from their spells to do so.

    Also, he has a problem facing spell resistance, high value of it (in addition to reasonable health) makes his burst inefficient and from there onward he is susceptible to disables unlike other cores and needs to wait some time to be able to do his famous "shotgun" combo.

    One more thing is that when he is going "HULK MODE" and getting 3-4k HP, his damage output become worse than CM's (without her AS talent), so that's not what you would like to do as a carry and it's mostly an escape mechanism rather then ability to withstand damage during a fight.

    While his damage is not bad, it's not as high and because of low range - threatening as other cores despite being ahead in therms of gold and levels, talking about normal attacks and not including his "shotgun" ability.
     
  12. mapdesigner

    mapdesigner Member

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    He morph to ho when needing it or when needing to stun

    Also, morph usually have manta + linken so that helps a lots vs orchid + frostbite
     
  13. Abstract.Raze

    Abstract.Raze Member

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    Current Morph is untouchable unless you don't have a Silencer or a Hexer in your team, you can' kill him, current Morph's ulti provides him a lot of variables and combination potentials and adaptation most importantly.

    Morph is very strong, he does not need mana slot anymore, or at least he doesn't rely on it anymore like was with his previous version, everytime when he's ganked, he increases his strength and when you couldn't kill him anymore because his allies teleported to him, he has the possibility to increase his agi stats for a counterattack and when you try to counterattack him during or within his own counterattack, he can increase again his strength stats.

    If it's a good Morph, he actually can clean his ass with any situation.

    Even if he knows that he's in disadvantage due silencers or Hexers on his enemy side, if it's a good Morph, he will always keep a certain balance on his stats so that he doesn't die fast while he's disabled, if it's a good Morph he can always play with his stats while bluffing with them everytime, making the whole situation complicated and unpredictable, for example, when everybody is missing, he can pre-increase his strength stats for free and farm in peace, making it not worth to gank him while he perpetuates himself in the lane till he's fat, it's like "everybody is missing, tzzz it's like being on my dear vacations, don't give a fuck"

    You're not the one who can psychologically pressure him rather he's in such position, he has the last words.
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2017
  14. MortalKombat3

    MortalKombat3 Member

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    He lacks ULTIMATE skill!!!!
    ATM, playing Morphling feels like playing a hero without ultimate skill at all! I've seen competive matches where Morph NEVER used his ultimate during ALL game, and won. I wonder, how retardedly strong his other 3 abilities were made so he's still a viable hero....
     
  15. kamukag3e

    kamukag3e Member

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    @MortalKombat3:
    Won a lot of my games as CM without using ultimate, same for Enigma.
    A lot of the heroes with 3 minute cooldown of ultimate can win a game with just 2 or 3 cast of their ultimate, barely doing impact with them.

    It's not about how big it is, it's about how you use it.
     
  16. flamegod0

    flamegod0 Member

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    uncommon for carry heroes tho (if you use morph as carry)
     
  17. kamukag3e

    kamukag3e Member

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    @flamegod0:
    OK, then let me put another example - I can win (and few times done so) with Medusa, AM and Terrorblade without using ultimate.

    All in all - ultimate spells while strong are not what defines a carry, but rather their ability which gives them scaling power. Also their net-worth progress/advantage.
     
  18. BloodRampage-

    BloodRampage- Member

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    you can also win games with carry cm - making statements like 'can win games with X' makes no sense at all.... until you can win a statistically significant number of games with such tactics - and i dont think you'll be able to do that without using AM/dusa ult

    anyway morph's true ult is actually his morph ability, while his ult is although in theory stupidly powerful (better version of rubick ult in many ways, as usual upholding the dota theorem 'for every support spell X there must exist a carry spell Y which scales and just does shit better'... there are many basic abilities + hero stats which are more useful than ultimates)... somewhat eclipsed by his other abilities
     
  19. kamukag3e

    kamukag3e Member

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    @BloodRampage-:
    Please define statistically significant number of games.

    AM and Medusa ultimate are not their main asset as you already said - and it's not what it's defining their games nor is a reason to win. AM can win without doing any damage to a hero, why would he need to use ultimate in order to win.
    His defying abilities are blink and mana break to some extend.

    Medusa's are Split Shot and Mana Shield, most players don't even use their ultimate properly.
     
  20. MortalKombat3

    MortalKombat3 Member

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    As CM - well, maybe, if enemies have tons of stuns and interrupts (though you can still use your ultimate to quickly kill large packs of creeps and improve your farm). Same for Jakiro.
    And if you let CM to cast her ulti for few seconds, she can just evaporate whole your team!

    As Enigma - lol, if you won without using ultimate, it means that you were just carries by your team, or youenemies were total trash noobs!!! Enigma's power lies in his ultimate, it's a core skill of this hero.