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What are the strenghs and weaknesses of the 3 classes?

Discussion in 'Dota Chat' started by vorsybl, Jun 15, 2018.

  1. vorsybl

    vorsybl Member

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    Agility, strength, and Intel?
     
  2. MrFrank

    MrFrank Member

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    I think it's more beneficial to look at hero roles rather than primary attributes. Primary attribute simply means that, for the most part, you get +1 damage for each attribute for that hero. If you have a INT hero with a +3 STR item, nada. INT hero with +3 INT? That's 3 damage!

    But ultimately it doesn't matter that much, you do better if you get out of the "str tanker int suprot agi hiter" mindset and look at roles instead.

    Just as an example, Earth Spirit and Tusk. They perform similar Roam roles, shoe-horning them according to their primary attribute (which again at best just provides +1 damage for that attribute and isn't that relevant to either of those heroes) doesn't help you. Trying to tackle the role does, against Roamers you want to keep wards up and track their movements on the map. And so on.
     
  3. vorsybl

    vorsybl Member

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    Good info, thanks. I always thought it might have an impact in drafting.

    Unfortunately, I won't be playing dota or video games anymore, accepted a job today since I have no choice being in debt and unable to pay bills. My apartment is too good of a deal to lose. And Since I'm almost 30, and I have to go back to 40 hours a week to pay the bills, my free time will be a lot more valuable. I plan on going back to drumset, maybe I'll meet a girl in the process and focus on that.

    Tried making dota my life's work, and failed. So now, wither away in an office and die . Had my fun, time to die now

    It's funny. Everyone on facebook saying congratulations...in reality im depressed as shit. Haha. I wanted to play games and be pro at them, since I was 13. I had 2 years off playing all day, and couldn't do it. How depressing, i have to just pretend like im happy...yes. Pretend, like in a poker game. Yes, how exciting then. Make barely enough to pay the bills, busting my ass 40 hours a week...dope. With no girl, or chance of a girl...why i haven't jumped off a bridge yet I have no idea. I've known several people from school that have offed themselves already, 24 years old, 26, years old. They had money too, girl friend, i have nothing i want, and yet im still alive.

    feelsbadman
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2018
  4. kamukag3e

    kamukag3e Member

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    @vorsybl:
    Learn to enjoy the games as such - games. Filling for you free time.
    Plenty of people try to get competitive, but it's not easy, you have to dedicate a lot of time and have talent for it - plenty of guys dedicate time, but not having talent makes them just a good players.

    In personal level - try to get some job which if you don't like, at least don't hate.
    Some program language or w/e proficiency and lazy/stress free job which gives good money will give you enough spare time to use for whatever you like.
     
    Siraraz likes this.
  5. fine93

    fine93 Member

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    Intel heroes have no strength

    try AMD heroes
     
    Equivocal likes this.
  6. GoLD-ReaVeR

    GoLD-ReaVeR Member

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    That is incorrect. Based on their primary attribute you can determine how a hero will scale in the game and what its role can be. There is a basic trifecta that applies most of the time: Strength < Agility < Intelligence < Strength.
    Strength naturally has the health pool to survive what int heroes can throw at it.
    Agility tends to scale in such a way that it can eat through strength heroes' health pool
    Intelligence tends to have the burst damage necessary to exploit the agility heroes' low health pool

    Of course there are heroes that break this basic mantra (and knowing which those are is important), but on average this is what you can expect.
     
  7. kamukag3e

    kamukag3e Member

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    @GoLD-ReaVeR:
    Sorry, but he is right and you are completely wrong.
    If we're talking about another game - yes, usually it goes this way.

    But in DotA heroes have abilities and talents which completely negate the effect of this and also the stats gain very from hero to hero. While the difference sure is there and at basic levels you are right, then you have roles, scaling and gold.

    When net worth is completely different heroes can't compete even the slightest.
    Chaos Knight with gold lead will not lose to any hero, so does Sven. Their battle prowess while under the influence of their abilities is unmatched. Non-scaling intelligence heroes can deal set amount of damage, BKB usually negate every single bit of that, so even agility heroes which are weaker can easily break them apart.

    PA can burst from very long range under-farmed intelligence hero just like that.

    DotA is such a complex game, main attributes are giving so little benefits that I can easily carry a game as CM with build oriented only for physical DPS if the gold is heavily in my favor.
     
  8. GoLD-ReaVeR

    GoLD-ReaVeR Member

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    When responding I recommend you read the entire post. That way you don't look as dumb.
     
  9. kamukag3e

    kamukag3e Member

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    @GoLD-ReaVeR:
    Do you mean this ?
    Then you have an exception rate of 70%, isn't that a bit too high to put something as a 'rule of thumb' ?

    If Intelligence hero doesn't have nukes - which a lot of heroes are - they are not really following the scenario you are describing.
    If Agility heroes build bulk - they doesn't follow the rule.
    If Strength heroes have abilities which help them overwhelm the DPS agility hero have - once more.
    So basically items and abilities decide this and not main attribute.

    ... you whole statement is full of holes and you dare call someone dumb.
     
  10. MrFrank

    MrFrank Member

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    Except for when it doesn't.
    Except for when it doesn't.
    Except for when it doesn't.

    Primary attributes don't do this, this is what attributes in general do. Primary attributes buff the effect of the attribute by a bit, and give you +1 damage for each point of that attribute. This is basic stuff.

    STR hero ≠ tanky
    AGI hero ≠ hitter
    INT ≠ nuke/support

    DK and BB aren't tanky because they have STR as their primary attribute, it's because of their abilities/talents. Sometimes heroes are tanky inherently, or because they build themselves that way. Axe comes to mind. Nyx isn't traditionally tanky but he has the health and armour to sustain himself in lane. Spectre starts out pretty weak but often makes items to take a lot damage. This is where items come in. You purchase them according to the role you have selected. They facilitate in the task you are carrying out, whether that's killing potential, aiding teammates, teamfight damage output, destroying buildings or a mix of those.

    Categorizing heroes according to their primary attributes, as I've mentioned previously, does more harm than good. You aren't going to pick Treant and say "oh I'm going to absorb INT spells due to my primary attribute being STR, that's my job". Or pick Rubick and say "yep, I gotta spam my nuke on the AGI Weaver, that's what I'm geared to do". This kind of thinking at best helps newer players ease into the game but I wouldn't recommend carrying on with it beyond the first few months of playing. Focus on roles, not attributes. I could literally go hero by hero but I'm hoping I've made enough of a point to be understood.
     
    kamukag3e likes this.
  11. vorsybl

    vorsybl Member

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    Didn't play for 3 days, preparing for this job today ,and, sure enough, 4 people manually muted from previous games. The account is still shadow pooled and it was nauseating. I actually uninstalled the game afterward to free up disk space for cs . Maybe I'll reinstall after work and continue to spend my free time with 1k mmr, shadow pooled players.

    You want to talk about roles... I don't even think these people (1k mmr shadow poolers) have a clue , and masturbate in their own feces.

    Anyway, I can always go back after I pay some.bills. my apt is cheap money wise after all. Ultimately I want to work from home. That is, streaming gaming.

    I figure now, if I can't perform well at a low paying job like this , how can I expect to be 10k mmr player? Where the latter is far more difficult task then whatever the fuck my 13 an hour job will be now. It's training, to be a better player . I'm all about the games, and playing good. I still need to mature a great deal first to make streaming work. I even have support from my dad, who says it will take time.and that I can't rely on it right now. To keep playing while still working out, paying bills, and eating well. . like with anything else being the best or one of the best at something takes discipline action and patience. First I have to lose however matches I need to before getting normal matchmaking

    Furthermore, classes still may affect roles with relation to the enemy. The reason why I bring this is up is mainly having to do with drafting

    Say, the role if support. Radiant has a int disruptor caster. Main attribute is Intel, high ranged right click, and squishy . So maybe dire picks abbadon: conversely a str hero with high damage absorption potential. Their roles are the same, however the effect they have is different?
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2018
  12. GoLD-ReaVeR

    GoLD-ReaVeR Member

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    And by default a hero gets more of his primary attribute than any other attribute. They also tend to start out with more of that attribute than their other attributes.
    The point was that if you'd fire a laguna blade on a str hero and an agi hero, the str hero is far more likely to survive given you don't know any other attributes. Because STR heroes usually have a higher health pool than agility heroes.
    You pick 2 examples of which one is just plain wrong in the context provided. DK's dragon blood is armor only, the passive provides resistance against towers and agility heroes. What makes DK tanky against spellcasters is as a matter of fact his health pool.
    Axe has a decent health pool combined with decent armor with the option of dramatically increasing that armor temporarily as well as making sure opponents use physical attacks rather than spells. That doesn't change the fact he's far more likely to survive a combo in the early stages than for example spectre.
    Nyx cannot tank a full combo from any int hero. He has an escape ability that returns the damage of one attack/spell and that is it.
    Yes, now lets compare this with the same items on pudge... Now who would you try to kill first?

    You're confusing roles with properties. You're not going to soak more spells because it's your duty, you're going to soak more spells because on average you're going to get away with it more easily. And Rubick should most definitely spam his ability on the weaver. That weaver won't last so long in lane that way. Understanding the difference between facing a weaver and a bristleback in the offlane is actually very fundamental.
     
  13. vorsybl

    vorsybl Member

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    The example reaver gives about Spectre and dk taking laguna blade is what I'm referring to
     
  14. MrFrank

    MrFrank Member

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    Uh, no.

    Ogre Magi, higher base STR than INT, there's a lot more examples you can check them out on Dota 2 Wiki. You might say those are a few specific examples, to which I say if you have to create exemptions to argue your point then there isn't one.

    It's because certain STR heroes have a higher health pool, you just said it yourself. It doesn't have anything to do with STR being their base attribute.

    And then there's a whole bunch, I don't really disagree with any of it, I'm just saying grouping heroes by base attribute is a waste of time. It's not a useful way of figuring out what a hero is geared to do, what their role is, how they're suited for a particular line-up.
     
  15. MortalKombat3

    MortalKombat3 Member

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    Well, STR heroes usually have higher HP, AGI heroes - a bit higher armor & AS (though AS greatly depends on hero's BAT), and INT heroes usually have higher MP. Everything else depends on hero's particular stats, skills and talents.

    Nope, it does. STR heroes receive 25% more HP pool per 1 point of STR (just because STR is their main attribute) , same as INT heroes receive 25% more MP per 1 point if INT. That's why STR hero has higher HP pool even if he has the same STR as INT or AGI hero.
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2018
    MrFrank likes this.
  16. MrFrank

    MrFrank Member

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    The original comment:

    I fire a Laguna Blade on a Wisp. I fire a Laguna Blade on a Ogre Magi.

    Ponder.

    I fire a Laguna Blade on a Necro with 2 Hearts. I fire a Laguna Blade on a Beastmaster with 3 Decay stacks from enemy Undying (/w Aghs).

    Ponder.

    I'm not trying to be combative here, the point is obvious. STR heroes on average probably have greater STR attribute, and benefit more from that STR, than INT and AGI heroes. Likewise for AGI heroes having more attack speed and armour, and INT having more mana.

    Again saying "STR heroes receive more HP from STR" as a proof of their tankiness is not relevant to the overall discussion, which is that how this categorization helps ingame. I just don't think it does, beyond a very basic level. At least when I'm playing a game at no point do I think "that heros an INT, he's squishy so I can hit him easy, but I'm AGI so I can take phys damage from the INT hero, but my STR ally can draw magic damage from their INT first" etc. I simply make a mental note of the heroes, that heroes abilities/talents, their items, their levels and so on.

    I'm more likely to think "their WD has a Glimmer now, our Zeus might not be able to pickoff their cores in the next fight now, I need to deliver stuns so our BB can stack up quill damage and I need to ward the jungle before this happens" or something like that.

    Again, I'm not disagreeing with you or with @GoLD-ReaVeR , I'm just not convinced the STR AGI INT mindset is meaningful. You said it best yourself: