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Wait times...wth

Discussion in 'Dota Chat' started by sweetsourpanda, Jan 15, 2018.

  1. sweetsourpanda

    sweetsourpanda Member

    Dec 28, 2012
    So... I used to be a hardcore player, like 20+hrs/week for years. I remember when Dota 2 first came out the wait times were very long, but after not too long they went down a lot. I never really recorded stats but if I had to guess I'd say my average wait time was 4-5 mins for a game over the course of the entire time I've owned Dota 2.

    But starting maybe a month or two ago I noticed I was waiting 6-8 mins for a game, which seemed odd and slightly annoying. Now in the last week or so I'm waiting 10+ mins for a damn game. Granted, I play very late at night, like 1am, but that's the time I've always played. Is it just me or are others noticing a change? I looked at the player count and it's down noticeably over the past several months, but not enough that it should be responsible for this. Thoughts?
  2. enrico.swagolo

    enrico.swagolo Member

    Mar 23, 2014
    I quit playing because of atrocious wait time. The way the game is today, it requires a huge player base in order to function. If even 10-15% of active players become inactive, the queue times will increase, and the player base will keep declining due to growing queue times. As the queue times grow, more people will leave, which will lead to even longer queue times. DotA really needs an influx of active players or a surrender system to free up whoever is still playing.
  3. ManOnTheCan

    ManOnTheCan Member

    Aug 18, 2013
    I have an idea, let's make more game modes and split the playerbase even more.
    mapdesigner and lovestep like this.
  4. kamukag3e

    kamukag3e Member

    Jun 11, 2009
    "no foreigners", "short waiting time".

    Pick one.
    (that's just a remark that make fun of all of those wishing to remove 'foreigners' like Russians, Peruvians and such from their queue).

    On the topic - the reason is complex.
    Specific MMR, odd hours, odd season, specific mode and server.
    Also, there was new mode implemented recently (turbo, non-ranked only) which is rather popular and get a lot of attention, thus dividing the player base even more.

    So to lower your waiting time (if possible):
    Try playing in more common hours, multiple servers, multiple modes, multiple languages.

    Ping below 100 is completely playable even if the server is far-away.
  5. InThoX

    InThoX Member

    Mar 15, 2014
    lmao 6 minutes is nothing, i dont see the problem?

    btw i still get games in under 1 minute sometimes. and i only got one region/language
  6. Siraraz

    Siraraz Member

    Jun 10, 2009
    Definitely feel it on accounts with lower behaviour score. I got one back up to 'Normal' but that one still has questionable queue times. My main which has always been good doesn't have queue time issues.
  7. sweetsourpanda

    sweetsourpanda Member

    Dec 28, 2012
    No, behaviour score is high so that's not it. Another thing I've noticed is that I'm always the highest MMR in the game. It's usually me (level 5 ancient), with 4 archon teammates, vs a team of legends. Like I'm not even memeing, I go mid and carry hard every game, the game always comes down to me and everyone knows it. I mean, I used to always think that way in my head because of muh epeen and ego, but back in the day everyone was roughly the same MMR. Now I really am playing with a bunch of people much below my skill level and the game fully admits it. Why the matchmaking pits 5 legends vs 4 archons + 1 ancient is beyond me, but that's how all my games have been for the last 20 or so. Could that be part of the reason for the crazy queu times, that there just aren't enough ancient players at 1am on US East?

    I'd play up to 100 ping and I play US West, but I can't leave north america without pings going up to 150+, and I don't want to play that.
  8. Thaelesk

    Thaelesk New Member

    Oct 16, 2009
    The badges are only going to show the highest badge obtained, you can't lose ranks until next recalibration.
  9. Skurai

    Skurai Member

    Sep 25, 2009
    I guess technology will eventually improve such that players in USA and Asia can play with low pings, under 20.

    Maybe valve can spend money on that :D
  10. Abdulink

    Abdulink Member

    Aug 8, 2010
    GJ volvo, waiting 15 min per game now.
  11. kamukag3e

    kamukag3e Member

    Jun 11, 2009
    Don't know, despite being recently increased for me for the last few games it never went past 5 minutes.
    And that's because there were currently world cup matches at that time ... who could've guessed ?

    Valve should put gun on the heads of all those DotA players and restrict them to play the game instead of doing anything else ... even better, non-players as well.
    This should reduce the waiting time to nearly instant !

    It sounds like a good fix to me.
  12. Nisamraw

    Nisamraw Member

    Nov 16, 2011
    Not gonna lie, this is becoming a huge issue.

    I mean, 5-10min to search a game, +5min to load/pick/start playing, and then you often have leavers min 1 (not getting the mid, getting FBed etc).

    So up to 20-30min wasted, and you don't even have played one game yet.

    This is the first time I don't want to play DotA, not because the matchamking is atrocious, but because I'm litterally not playing and wasting 30min doing nothing but wait for a decent game to start. It's fucking discouraging. Games are already atrocious enough as they are (60min+ games that you cannot hope to win because god machmaking gives you cores that just cannot carry. Just ended a game with a godly Pango pos 1 (already bad enough) that went vlad/sb/linken to make sure he wasn't dealing any kind of damage. SOOOO FUN, thanks Volvo) to not have to waste 30min between them.

    If those 10min of queue time would translate into finer, more balanced, and better team comps overall, that would actually be a fair deal. But that's clearly not the case unfortunately.

    I mean, I'm not that impatient but I have a life and a dayjob. Playing only 2 games on an evening because 30min wasted + 2x1hour games seems like it's not worth it. Can't even warm up.

    I'm more and more considering playing on smurf accounts, and leave every game that is going wrong to not waste my time. Yeah, I know it's a shitty mentality since I never give up a single game, but we're talking about my time here. 60 min long punishement with monkeys that I have to watch + 10/20 min in between games? Thanks, but no thanks. I'll pick the more common way that everybody goes this days: have multiple accounts, and leave really fast, to not waste time, energy, effort, into retarded games that don't make sense.

    I think I finally understand why more and more people are leaving games recently. I can't really blame them, they're probably the smarter people. I mean, who cares right? Your 2-23 Lina that you have to watch painfully feed for 1h is going to report you because you told him that he's feeding, which is the truth. So why even bother?
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2018
    Abdulink and frigidsoul like this.
  13. kamukag3e

    kamukag3e Member

    Jun 11, 2009
    I think it's about personal preference, even a lost game is still fun to play for some people.

    There is also 'game is free to leave' if there is a player who already has disconnected (completely) from the game.
    A conceding option is not a good idea IMO, LoL has it implemented and it's a monstrosity. If you read 'gg' or 'let them end' in DotA it would be 'concede vote' in LoL every 5-10 seconds.

    Spending a lot of time due to queue and in-game strategy is better then the chaos it was previously. I think that a lot of players are not remembering properly the lack of those measurements.
    1) Back in Garena we waiting much more time for completely unreliable game;
    2) Leaves were not punished at all and there were constantly few in every single game;
    3) No Pick/Strategy time was even in DotA 2 before it was implemented:
    a) ally pick his hero 2 minutes after players are already in the river, fighting for the runes;
    b) ally pick his items while the second creep wave is already clashing;
    c) team items such as couriers, wards and others were not bought at all, because you cannot track them and supports did not cooperate with one another, or we had 2-3 couriers in a team (ignoring intentional abuse cases).

    So, yes in comparison to previously it's a dream come true.

    Now I understand your frustration, a lot of time I completely skip playing DotA if I don't have at least 1 hour and above spare time for a single game.
    I answer that problem by doing other stuff or playing other - shorter games and resort to DotA only when I have quite a lot of time on my hands.

    As far as non-capable players - well there are and will always be plenty of them, with the recent 'season reset' and it's bad - luck based - forms it's a nightmare and probably will continue be the case for the next month or two.
    Can't be helped - you can have only positive things without any drawbacks, especially when you implement something new.

    For quick and stress-free games would recommend Turbo.
    Search time is lower, game duration is significantly lower, even loss won't affect your MMR if you put it on your mind. It's not as deep and complex as a regular game, but you can't have one without the other.
  14. Nisamraw

    Nisamraw Member

    Nov 16, 2011
    People that like to lose when they aren't given a fair hand are not mentally sane. It's like liking to play poker versus someone that is heavily cheating. Sorry, but no, it's a not a matter of personal preferences. At best, it's being masochistic. Matches in DotA aren't even "1 trash + 3 average + 1 good" versus the same comp. No, no. That would actually be probably playable to some extent. It's more like "5 tryhards that want to win" versus "3 players that are being dragged down by 1/2 toxic pieces of shit that can't even play their heroes on a ~4k average level". (they often don't even qualify as 3k). No matter how hard you try, you cannot win 3v5 when the other team has 5 players that have actual brains. That's the sad truth of this game.

    Before, when networth wasn't that free in this game, you could. Now, playing versus 5 people with actual brains, means even their supports are unkillable, and have 50 items that you can't counter because you need your mates to do it for you, just like their mates are currently doing it for their cores. It's unplayable.

    Still better than to waste my time. Also, LoL's matchmaking is actually better than DotA's (which isn't too hard) so DotA should be inspired by it, not the other way around.

    What does it have to do with Valve's DotA 2 again? Why not even go back to Bnet? No wait, why not even go back to a time when computer weren't invented yet?

    Your fanboyism is so real that you ACTUALLY THINK that's a good thing when you're forced into NOT PLAYING THE DAMN GAME because you don't have 4 HOURS in your hands to play 2 MEDIOCRE GAMES? I'm speechless.
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2018
    frigidsoul likes this.
  15. kamukag3e

    kamukag3e Member

    Jun 11, 2009
    [qoute]Still better than to waste my time. Also, LoL's matchmaking is actually better than DotA's (which isn't too hard) so DotA should be inspired by it, not the other way around.[/quote]
    You are gravely mistaken, LoL matchmaking is far inferior to DotA at that current moment.
    Easy to observe the player distribution alone.
    DotA and LoL.

    Then you have the static meta of LoL which actually makes matchmaking system much easier, it's like searching for a party for a raid in World of Warcraft, you have set in stone roles you need covered and you just search for those. In DotA you are like in an old-style RPG with multi-classes and stuff, so good luck pointing the role of anyone.

    And I generally disagree with concede option, perhaps you should play some LoL games and tell us about what you feel about the concede option yourself first.

    The thing is not about DotA 2 being better then the earlier Warcraft days, it's about the progress which was made during all that time. Perhaps you might not seen the difference but it is there and it's huge, so big that if you make a transition from LoL to DotA 2 it would be much easier then from WC DotA to DotA 2.

    You are just spoiled. Wishing for all the good things, but without the bad coming hand in hand.
    If they didn't implement all those things, you wouldn't have the bad things you are currently complaining about, but guess what - the good things far outweigh the bad.

    No, your immature behavior is what makes you think that the world spin around your needs and that a game which million of players spend their time have to be adjusted for you.

    If the game is shorter it will have some draw-back for sure - I don't want it. I prefer good game which demands a big chunk of time.
    You know why I don't play Total War series a lot despite enjoying them ? A good game requires few days, I don't have that time - do you see me spewing shit about the game developers and stuff ? No I just play shorter iterations or don't play at all - regrettably.

    If you so much hate DotA, don't play it.
    If you play it despite hating so much stuff about the game - I'm not so sure about your mental state.

    So far away from any sane stance that it's not worth responding seriously.

    Comparing cheating with a losing a game, then what about losing a hand in poker because the opponent is better. Is that equal to play against cheater in DotA ?

    And there is no such thing as "trash+average+good" composition, if you are at that level with your legitimate account - you are at that level. All the trash you see are the same as you when you are in your 'bad/unlucky' games.
    Just recently a 6/15 middle who lost his lane with Pugna versus Invoker was swearing his hole team, while the average death count in the team was 7 and was with 414 XPM, when the support was with 500 (a party game mind you).

    So basically he has the naive view of the game but let his ego speaks how his teammates are trash.
    I'm not saying he is trash, all I'm saying is that he doesn't understand when he is behind and how he see every move his allies make as mistake resulting in his loss. Rather sure that he has quite a lot of victories where he carried his team.
  16. vorsybl

    vorsybl Member

    Mar 17, 2015
    Still, he has a point, coz I've been experiencing that shit.

    It's one thing if a match takes 30 minutes, and the actual game runs its course as it should. That is, people pick their roles and heros, and they play them as best as they can correctly. So for example in my last match, where I am anti mage, a super hard carry that needs assload of gold to be useful, the shadow shaman should go safe lane with me, harass/zone enemy offlaners (who was void and ck, it wouldve been a dominated lane for us if riki didn't show up instead making it harder for me), and buy lots of wards and dust and support items.

    I got really pissed that game, and afterward, my conduct summary refreshed. Went from C+, to C, 0 abandons, 6 reports, and a dozen commends. So that's where I'm @ right now. Based on my experience, it'll take at least two conduct summary refreshes to get to "normal," and that's without getting reported in 20-30 matches. So this basically means I'll be playing very little dota in the next few weeks, unless some heads from PD want to party up and see what we can do. As far as solo goes I aint playing that shit lol is a waste of time right now.

    ANd it's another thing when, you wait 30 minutes for a game, then the lanes are really messed up, either because they're dumb, or just don't know any better, or don't care. Either way "ranked" should always implicate try hard, trying to win, etc. To do that you gotta play right. Or you wait 30 minutes and all the lanes fail hard just hard feeding like you hear the "ally died" sound once every 1-2 minutes for 10-15 minutes until it's just better to let the game finish so you can leave earlier.

    ULtimately, the fact of the matter is, i remember when i successfully was able to get through 2 conduct refreshes, I literally had to keep try harding in the face of the above conditions and variables, and it was verry difficult. I mean, in the end, it worked out, because i didn't get reported, and one thing they mention in that shadow pool vid is consistency.

    Ultimately, I just really need to be prepared to lose every game I que for until I see a consistent change in gameplay.

    THere's really honestly nothing more for me to learn in DOTA. The time I spent with K earlier this year really shed light on nearly all of my problems in dota which were mostly having to do with mechanics. My rating was much higher back in the day without this knowledge, so right now I'm just waiting for games where I have a chance to implement this new knowledge as opposed to just waiting.

    These are the trends in my games:

    • Little to no rotations at all
    • No tower defense, sometimes not even T3
    • Lane configuration that makes no sense at all
    • Teammates that flame each other in chat instead of playing
    • Intentional feeding
    • Giving up early
    • AFK farming jungle

    I never get a chance to play really because I Never have teammates around to even out a skirmish/teamfight. It's always uneven, even trying to farm a camp 2-4 people show up out of nowhere because the "support" on the team didn't buy a single ward for 20 minutes haha. :D

    One thing I did when successfully improving behavior score was buying the wards, regardless of my role or hero. Like if i was playing AM or void, and there were most likley 4 wards in stock, i'd buy them. I think that was one thing that didn't get me reported all those games was that i was still trying in the face of doom knowing i wasn't gonna win without being really lucky. That is, lucky enough for the other 4 people to work together more than one or two times over the course of a match.
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2018
  17. kamukag3e

    kamukag3e Member

    Jun 11, 2009
    Waiting for a game that long is there for a reason.
    You have said rating which really lower the number of people the system can put you up against.
    Then you have even lower behavior score - limiting further the people it can place you with.

    What do you expect from a system that tends to put you into a game with player with similar characteristics, going for a game of chess and wishing to be put in a tournament with grand-masters ? Or because the tournament need some time to be organized but you wish to play 'here and now' ? Well it doesn't work like that.

    Wishful thinking is one thing, but being realist is what matters in this case.
    If you wish to improve that - do something instead of complaining.
    In your case increase rating and behavior score, while rating depends on skill - behavior score is all about behavior in-game.

    There are no guarantees and 'system' doesn't provide the best outcome in case-by-case basis, it provides fair treatment in statistics given big enough sample is provided.

    What do I mean by that ?

    You are complaining by the circumstances in your game and I know it's true, others do as well - I presume they are right for their complains and most of the things do happen and from certain point of view may be dreadful.
    But I have nice games - because I'm in such place, so does a lot of others.
    Now - if the players which you play with are put in my games it would probably not be so joyful to me - but you see - this means there is no system that treat them right.
    Can you imaging being in a game against me every single time ? You will have less then 1% win-rate, your nerves will be shattered by not understanding the reason why you lose every single game and you will blame everything - system, allies, yourself etc. But the reason in such a case would be that a said system just put opponents not matching skill in every single game.

    Do you think you can perform well and consistent if you are put in a game where everyone besides you have 4 or 5k MMR ?
    With the behavior score - it's the same, you have short temper and very-very high number of abandons, those two things lower your score over the time and once you get in those games it's really hard to get out, doing it requires calm attitude and a lot of time.

    Once again - imagine you manage to climb out to high MMR and high behavior score, now you will be 'protected' by the system and send in games with similarly behaving players. Can you imagine the system being broth down and now you will on 'random' principle be put once again in games with such players you have now ?

    Actually that's quite good, keep up the good work. Once you exit the low behavior score and rise from there even higher, you will see how enjoyable a game of DotA can be.

    The thing is - you should not rage and screw your progress meanwhile, because you did this already couple of times.

    What do you expect from players in that bracket, most of the players there can't play on par with bots on average difficult, their understanding of the game is non-existent and they mainly aim for 'big items' and 'kills' everything else is secondary or not important at all.

    Once again - the wait time is related to the number of availble players suited for a single game.
    Do you wish to play in a single player game ? If not DotA requires 10 players to be matched together, go ask Aussies how are faring when their whole server is with such a low population that in the most played hours in the most common bracket they still have quite a big search time.
  18. MortalKombat3

    MortalKombat3 Member

    Dec 29, 2016
    I used to have 1-3 min wait time (average - 2 min). It was like so for YEARS! But ~10 days ago, i noticed that wait times went up DRASTICALLY, and now i have to wait for 7-10 minutes to find a damn game! WTF? I didnt changed any settings!
  19. Abdulink

    Abdulink Member

    Aug 8, 2010
    Same happened to me. I thought my behavior scare tanked, but nope, it's still B.
  20. vorsybl

    vorsybl Member

    Mar 17, 2015
    "normal" is when the que times become, normal, lol. As in 1-5 mins tops.

    It's when you have a letter, doesn't matter what it is, that the wait time starts to elongate.

    As far as I understand it from what K's been describing, and my own experience, your account is basically tagged with some kind of marker. The matchmaker probably only searches for other players in that que with the same markers. The markers are comprised of behavior score and MMR. Don't know how else to put it.

    I said somewhere else, think about the % of people who are "shadow pooled," it's probably very low. Because it's low, it takes forever to find players in the match because of the tags.
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2018