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To get rid of perma-fighting meta

Discussion in 'Meta-Game Discussion' started by Dr_JP, Jan 4, 2017.

  1. Dr_JP

    Dr_JP Member

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    Can we all agree Dota 7.00 afterward became a huge perma-fighting meta?

    And that's bad for the game because of how different strategies are jeopardized because of that?

    I think there's no need to rechange a lot of things, but this one seems crucial to me:

    - Make AoE gold (which comes as partially from hero killing and being around hero kills) not reliable gold!

    - The hero killing/tower/Hand of Midas/Courier/Track/Roshan gold keep being reliable gold!

    Why?

    That has the power to stop the suicidal perma fights happening around the map, because currently AoE gold + pushing resulting from that is so much better for gold/exp gains than creep/neutral farming, to a point that's almost the only possible strategy.

    If you achieve kills but ends dying in the proccess, you should use your quick buy button if you wanna profit from that money instead of brainless diving everywhere everytime.
     
  2. JDF8

    JDF8 Member

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    My games have not been permanent death matches. I think that people just are not used to the new patch yet, and revert to brawling
     
  3. Monsterlord_2nd

    Monsterlord_2nd Moderator Staff Member

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    Well, nerfing aoe gold like that will put supports in the shitter, and honestly they're in the best place they've ever been in terms of playing in pubs. Taking that away would be a pretty big deal for actually having fun.

    Honestly I think the new map is a bigger hurdle for farming. It's so, so dangerous to be alone now, because of how restricted vision is in the jungle.
     
    Freaky Alien Genotype and Dr_JP like this.
  4. Leadblast

    Leadblast Member

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    they made this game so early gank-friendly that someday, it will be back to being an incredibly boring game because ganks are extremely risky and nobody will want to commit. I fear that day because it's coming.

    I feel that, as Dota stands now, it's just a big-risk big-reward game. You either steamroll the other team too easily, or you lose horribly. Almost no comebacks as how once it used to be.

    I think yesterday or the day before that I had a game with WR (the same one where the other team had 4 disablers including a Bane, so I made both BKB & Linkens) and at some point I died defending our tier 1 mid tower. I immediately hit buyback, and hunted down and killed the guy who had killed me previously. I did the same thing a couple more times and it did pay off, so. This helped us win. In the past I wouldn't have done such a thing.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2017
  5. Oesile

    Oesile Member

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    'We' don't agree. I have seen a big variety of teams and strats this patch in the depths of 3k. Some of which shouldn't even be a thing.
    The only strat I see jeopardized is the 4 protect 1, because supports currently get so many tools that no single hero can steamroll through a team no matter how much farm he has.
    But splitpushing is as annoying and strong as ever, pickoff team into siege has always been popular (thanks to pudge being popular), full on pushstrats are great with drow currently, slowpush teams with Luna and SD are still a thing and going strong etc.
    If anything 6.88 was just as full on fighting as this patch is.
    I will however admit that when people go for cavemen dota that they fully commit. Some games have been way too fucking intense, with multiple fights every minute. The intensity changed, but the frequency has not in my games.

    I do however like the suggestion. Dota is flexible enough to take many of these changes and still allow for cavemen dota, without making supports so broken.
    Seriously you can't stop the progression of a support anymore, even as Bane I get multiple items. Which is terrible, because when Bane can afford two items another support can afford much more.
    This essentially narrows the window in which supports such as Bane and Lich are useful (aka supports that don't need any items at all).

    I heavily disagree. Nerfing AOE gold will be a boon for 'real' support heroes. Because of the massive amounts of gold that are now available, why wouldn't I pick a support that scales well into midgame?
    Supports are already plenty strong. Too strong if you ask me.

    Because ganking is easier and rewarding, ganks will become more risky someday? Elaborate, this just sounds weird.
    If anything ganking has very low risk currently because it's harder to stop it and there are more paths to gank the jungle and through the jungle unseen. Don't see why people wouldn't commit.

    I feel that it's in a good spot currently. People are still salty about the rubberband and comeback mechanics 'trivializing' early game plays.
     
  6. MortalKombat3

    MortalKombat3 New Member

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    I think, it's because stacking was nerfed, so supports try to fight to be actually useful.
    Not to mention, in pubs players always perma-fight...

    In fact, AoE gold was nerfed in 7.00. Fighting isnt as benefitial as it was, actually.
     
  7. Bargh

    Bargh Member

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    Supports are in worst place assuming you mean heroes.

    As for role its so easy to pick semicarry and transition into core with teamfight gold.
     
  8. Dr_JP

    Dr_JP Member

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    I don't have this feeling. I've been gotten a good success by playing selfmade heroes able to permafight (mainly Crystal Maiden, but also Ezalor and Jakiro, for example), while playing extremely aggressive in order to avoid enemy farming and securing map control.

    However, that's too much action and too little peace to play carries, for example, while playing support those crazy perma-fights grant me a huge EXP bonus (mainly) and more gold then a support could ever think of receiving.

    I'm into that proccess of not being hipster about my hero pool and spamming those hated FotM heroes, however, recently I've been playing support-only at ranked and my core heroes (because I know most of time ppl will not support properly) for unranked.

    I share the opinion supports are more impactful now then ever.

    That's a good argument.

    Maybe I have that feeling because so many things changed and when ppl aren't comfortable to new things, perma-fighting would be the best option indeed.
     
  9. Kris

    Kris Moderator Staff Member

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    Basically if you don't take towers before 10 minute on this map you'll lose all your map control and get choked out. It was very obvious in the Newbee DC games today.

    It's one of the reasons luna is so good right now. You can take early towers and have the midgame teamfight to retain map control.
     
  10. Oesile

    Oesile Member

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    Is that so? I mean in the Execration vs WG.Unity we saw the opposite happen, where Execration lost a ton of towers early on but were able to mantain map control and win the game (Mirana had a super early aghs, Slardar had a fast blink, WG.Unity was absolutely rocking that game).
    Luna was only able to hit towers much later, and I believe Luna's power is mostly because whenever you lose a teamfight against her you risk losing half your base, as illustrated by Execration.

    There is much more to it than just 'basically you need early towers or you get choked out'.
    Heck, Execration were able to farm up incredibly well against SD + Mirana, one of the scariest ganking comboes, especially when paired with a Nyx Assassin.
     
  11. Kris

    Kris Moderator Staff Member

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    Perhaps in pro games they can do a bit better. But as far as public meta goes whoever is winning the game at around 12-14min tends to roll over the other team unless they have particularly good set pieces to recover.
     
  12. Oesile

    Oesile Member

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    Pro and pub games are a completely different ballpark. Heroes that are hotly contested in the pro scene are shit in pubs, and vice versa. And if there is something I learned from my fellow pubs, is that there is no lead that can't be thrown.
    Coming back into the game might be harder because of the talents though, if the opponent has an early game advantage they will hit powerspikes that didn't exist before 7.00, allowing them to push their advantage even further.

    I still don't see the meta being fighting fighting fighting or that brainless at all (Pub dota was always brainless anyway).
    However, I found heroes like Undying to work much better than my Oracle/WW/Omniknight picks, I'll admit. Don't think I lost an Undying game yet. It's a great hero to stop aggression and dives with, allowing my team to either greed it out or to even take early towers and go back to ricing.
    Tangoes, Courier, a Ward, Stout and a mango/a branch+clarity works wonders.
    Whenever the opposing teams tries to go hyper agression 5 man strat they will have to do so against an Undying, and it will cost them dearly, because they are not farming while our carry never joins fights and rices.
     
  13. ManOnTheCan

    ManOnTheCan Member

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    Undying is super fun to play now. Just run around the map decaying and punching people, get to level 10, and you get a free midas.
     
  14. ark-eXodia

    ark-eXodia Member

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    death ball meta = omg game already over when they push

    rat meta= omg are you kidding me, how can i win when they play like rat

    farming meta= omg all of them are farming jungles/lane, nobody went to gank or push, you want to farm all day like MMORPG all day for 1 hour ?

    ganking/perma fight meta= omg people are play so aggresive, we need a peaceful farming relaxing time, why people ganking and got money anyway ?

    hohohaha meta= gg wp

    basically all meta are like that, just adapt to it
     
    Zenotha likes this.
  15. Leadblast

    Leadblast Member

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    Except that Luna wasn't good at killing towers to begin with
     
  16. Freaky Alien Genotype

    Freaky Alien Genotype Moderator Staff Member

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    A simple solution would be to add 1 additional high ground ward spot over the Radiant "Pit" and probably one over the similar area of the Dire jungle. Sure, enemy teams could use these spots, but proactive teams could keep their jungles clear.
     
  17. MortalKombat3

    MortalKombat3 New Member

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    Yeah, vision seem to be the main problem.
    Or, they can just reduce observer ward's cooldown, so you could place more wards, to provide reliable vision.
    In pubs, there will always be perma-fight meta, cause players are so disorganised. In competive game, i believe things are OK.
     
  18. Oesile

    Oesile Member

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    Please no, I'm already busy hoarding and placing wards nonstop as a solo support and the only way to shut people up with >We need wards! is actually showing them they are out of stock, and all placed around the map.
    I don't want people whining at me more then they usually are because a ward happens to be on stock in base.
     
  19. Freaky Alien Genotype

    Freaky Alien Genotype Moderator Staff Member

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    I would have to agree with this. Just providing a couple more placement options should be sufficient before anything more drastic is done.
     
  20. MortalKombat3

    MortalKombat3 New Member

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    To be honest, wards often dont have so much impact as majority of mid-MMR pub players think. Some of them still get ganked, even despite they SEE enemies with wards. Or they go farming to the territory, where we dont have vision (and we cant see all map, because wards are limited). Or wards get dewarded by enemies. Or enemies use a smoke/invis and dont give a shit about wards, and supports dont have time or gold to put sentries everywhere.
    But most often, we lose because we lose TEAMFIGHT, where enemy position is relatively known. Then, my team says "we need wards". Hell, wards dont make your team having +500 HP and +100 DPS. But most pub players act like they do!