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Time to nerf Invoker

Discussion in 'Meta-Game Discussion' started by Zloydoter1241, Sep 9, 2017.

  1. Zloydoter1241

    Zloydoter1241 Member

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    I am really sick and tired of Invoker. Dotabuff shows that he is the second most populare hero after pudge which means that he is in every third game. Invoker used to be a hard to play hero 2-3 years ago but now every 2-3k pub player can play decently. I remember when he had last hit problems which actually affected him. But now he has nearly 0 downsides.
    My solution is simple - decrease exort damage per sphere from 4/8/12/16/20/24/28 to 3/6/9/12/15/18/21.
    This will not only make qw build viable again but also decrease his early harras potential. And I am not even talking about his stat gain of 8.1 There isn't any other hero with such insane stat gain. Old Pl with 4.2 agi gain had 7.9 and all were whining about it 4 years ago. Something must be done because the hero is insainly powerfull even in mediocre hands.
     
  2. invul_nerable

    invul_nerable Member

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    Invoker is overrated. Seriously, I eat this hero for breakfast, and I am playing support. May be part the reason why I feel like that is because of the try hards in dota nowadays. That being said, I dont think he needs any further nerfs.
     
    Abstract.Raze likes this.
  3. RisaStoleMyHart

    RisaStoleMyHart Moderator Staff Member

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    You conveniently mention he has a high pick rate, but leave out that his win rate is garbage 44-46% in all brackets. Invoker's early game is trash, and due to how he scales, a midas has to be made whether you get it quick or not then an Aghs. He's still the late game master-of-everything though.
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2017
    Abstract.Raze likes this.
  4. Abstract.Raze

    Abstract.Raze Member

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    As a spellcaster or as a mage, Invoker remains as one of the strongest in the very late game at the hand of Storm and OD, as their utility does not severely fall to 0 even if all of the opposite team, possess BKB, Invoker and Storm possess a strong base ATK damage in late game, maybe OD is highly dependent from his Arcane Orb which probably means that a fresh BKB impacts him severely, but once it isn't anymore, he just deals tons of damage as well + he can hide and previously avoid team fights such like Storm too, as long the opposite BKB is operating.

    However, as people say, his early game isn't that strong anymore, he is squishy as well, Alacrity isn't anymore what it used to be, his Mana pool was reduced by 72, due the reduction of his INT stats gain, he is fair now, he requires more skill as well more wisdom, the spam isn't there anymore, such like was the case with SF's razes before the patch 6.86, where they only required 75 Mana, he was pretty abusive as well, till the nerf came and his hostile pressure wasn't there anymore how it used to be.

    -------------------------------

    I think that your problem is psychological, you think that he's still strong as he used to be in the past, now those Invokers perceive your fear, your overexaggerated caution on the matter and you give them an opening, just work on it and dare to pressure them back.
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2017
  5. vvjacobo

    vvjacobo Member

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    I do not find him hard to harass, i mean, he is ranged, he has free regen, anti-invis needed to kill above level 3, good stats, summon to scout... I'd say he is quite quite above 50% of hero pool in terms of laning. He has the problem that he really shines if he outlevels everybody so he needs more like a perfect laning.
    If anytihng i'll reduce that ice wall fuckness. Makes any other slow in he game worse.
     
  6. kamukag3e

    kamukag3e Member

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    @vvjacobo:
    I think that he is good enough in the early game, not powerful enough to win a lane on his own, but super hard to punish so not to be considered a 'greedy pick' as some other heroes are, especially multiple heroes in a single team.

    His middle game is superior to nearly every single hero, except those with some specific power-spike, which usually fall off later.

    His late-game is superior to any hero, except against those with build-in spell immunity and those which can build BKB and not hinder their game while being able to close it before the duration hit critical levels.

    What does Invoker possess as feature is too much for others to handle IMO.
    He has good sustain, good single target DPS, good AoE presence, nice mobility, good crowd-control abilities, can split-push and is slippery so hard to make a solo kill on him - even 2:1 for that matter.

    My point is that he does actually need some reduction on his power, but I'm not so sure how to be approached, because taking something too important from him might break the hero completely.
     
  7. vvjacobo

    vvjacobo Member

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    In my humble opinion, it would be much better designed if he could only max 2 paths at level 25. Perhaps giving slightly higher benefit to the maxed paths and lowering power of the trees not maxed at level 25. That way you would feel he actually have to commit one game style to be good with other 2. You know... to avoid that splinter feeling in the brain you get when you play against a level 18+ invoker.
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2017
    flamegod0 likes this.
  8. flamegod0

    flamegod0 Member

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    actually, quite an interesting idea sir. I like the suggestion (given you can make a good and balanced one). T-Up for concept
     
  9. BloodRampage-

    BloodRampage- Member

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    people just love to blow shit out of proportions about how invoker's versatility is imba etc etc whenever he becomes a top pick

    no, its not and never was

    hes an example of a hero thats fun to play, and fun to play against - if he does feel too strong, its likely he just needs a slap-on-the-wrist kind of nerf (either to his laning or lategame) rather than anything significant
     
  10. effreit89

    effreit89 Member

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    ^ but it is IMBA, think of a nice spell that is similar to one of Invo's and Invo's appears to be always the more powerful variation.

    That sunstrike alone is ulti worthy (its a friggin global, pure damage spell)
    Not to mention EMP and the friggin Ice Wall
    His Invis is literally the best in the game.
    The initiation range and AoE of Nado is ridiculous too
    Maxed Blast becomes a really big problem lategame.
    Alacrity is a huge AS + Damage buff - who has that?!
    Snap > literally Malefice on steroids
    Meteor is meh, but does deals tons of dps
     
  11. kamukag3e

    kamukag3e Member

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    @effreit89:
    You forget Forge Spirits, which are huge DPS source both against creeps, heroes and good against towers.
    His orb bonuses are huge boost to his damage, regeneration or movement speed, making him able to be on par with any hero on demand.
    And the fact that he can combo some spells naturally for some game breaking combos - Tornado and EMP for initiation and start of a team-fight from mind-blowing range, leaving all the enemies with very limited mana to respond and good chunk of AoE damage and of course his famous Cold Snap into Meteor, Sun Strike and Deafening Blast combo which can instantly kill without a chance of reaction nearly every hero except the most durable and resilient to magic.
     
  12. flamegod0

    flamegod0 Member

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    my main problem with invoker is, even if the player is not skillful with him, his AoE presence + disable is f-in too many. late game you can't kill him without committing your BKB to him and he can still kite you with just force staff + ghost-walk. not to mention that he also have option B to rat your towers with spirit+alacrity.

    however, that is his niche. the jackofalltrade. and it is generally understood that hero like invoker or doom or bat is very hard to balance. either super powerful or trash bin level. the sweet spot is hard to find.
     
  13. RisaStoleMyHart

    RisaStoleMyHart Moderator Staff Member

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    Wrong and it's not just his versatility that was his biggest strength. I can recall at least 2 times when he was top pick and had a very high win rate both in comp and pubs. While in TI5, in total he was picked 20 times and had a 40% win rate.

    Up until 6.71, Invoker received only buffs. He was a tier 1 mid and it became the first time his base attack damage got nerfed as a counter to 6.69's change to Quas, Wex, Exort giving stats. The good ole days when any 2k mmr could play Invoker mid by going Phase boots + Exort/Quas build. Cold snap and Forge spirit and his auto attacks hit like 100 per hit in laning phase :cat:.

    Then he got nerfed again and was dead until 6.79, where he could invoke 2 spells at level 1.% of pick+ban of Invoker in 2014. 6.79 came out in October 2013. Invoker was tier 1 from Jan to June for reasons i can't remember anymore. Not to mention the period where Exort/Quas was dead and the meta was Quas/Wex Invoker.

    [​IMG]

    Invoker is a pretty unique hero and he seems to get nerfed and stay dead until he's buffed. Then becomes top pick and repeat.
     
  14. ManOnTheCan

    ManOnTheCan Member

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    It's expected that a hero with a completely different leveling behavior and over twice as many spells as other heroes would be difficult to balance. Especially when these 9 spells that are each more powerful than most non-ultimate spells.

    He will always be the most powerful end-game hero simply because of his versatility- invis, global, split-push, dps, disable, wave clear, teamfight aoe. So he is extremely sensitive to things like gpm and xp changes.
     
    flamegod0 likes this.
  15. Nisamraw

    Nisamraw Member

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    His dmg output is quite ridiculous actually. I'd say it's time to nerf Chaos Meteor, and remove pure damage from sunstrike. The combos are way too easy to pull off on his own, but it becomes even more retarded when comboed with a team that knows how to play a little.

    And ofc, he's god tier lategame. You can only fight him for 5sec, otherwise known as 'I have to perfectly time my BKB or else the fight is lost', and after that there's nothing you can do but spend your life in tornadoes, frost wall, defeanings, OOM, and die from right clicks or 3k5 damage from CM+SS. Easy life.