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Thoughts on oracle

Discussion in 'Dota Chat' started by frigidsoul, May 25, 2018.

  1. frigidsoul

    frigidsoul Member

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    I played this hero , and it is my main hero to spam , it is strange this hero is 107 th most popular hero.
    some pro players say he is trash or shit,really I don't understand why.you can counter most cancerous heroes with this hero .
    yea I accept he lacks str, hasn't good disable but his AOE purge and and ult is the best.

    you can nuke a hero easily , just cast two Purifying flames and then purge = 800 dmg.

    he can counter windranger , pa, sb,ds,ursa,lc,timbersaw early game(since you just use spells),tb early game, dark seer, sven (his armor)...
    your healing ability is op af, cast disarm and then cast third spell twice, you can recover 780 health.
    if you are in a good position as oracle, you fuck enemy so hard.
     
  2. Blarrg

    Blarrg Member

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    The problem with the hero is that he has a lot of options to do things but doesn't do any of them all that well. Your spells have multiple uses but you can still only use one use at a time. Obviously flames can be a nuke or a heal, but not both. While things like Purification is a nuke AND a heal at the same time.

    Hes good in specific lineups that can make up for his lockdown and take advantage of his defensive abilities but otherwise he is garbage. Just a very niche hero. Nothing really wrong with that though.
     
    frigidsoul likes this.
  3. Lama051

    Lama051 Moderator Staff Member

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    He is quite unkown, mostly due to the fact that his nerfs after release came too soon, so people did not abuse him enough in midlane for general game population to register him. Majority of times I or someone else plays him you see how nobody knows what his skills really do or how do they look like. You cast false promise on obviously dead guy but he runs instead of fighting, people flee from disarmed enemies etc.

    All he needs is one patch where he is overpowered for his long term popularity to rise.
     
  4. Equivocal

    Equivocal Member

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    I think his biggest issue is that Fortune's End's level scaling is just badly designed. Every time you level it past level one feels like a waste of a skill point. It is the only skill which doesn't need to be combined with his other spells, and thus obviously the skill you take at level 1 most of the time (disarm can also be leveled for efficient hit trading but lacks kill potential).

    I assume you mean "not abusing him as midlane support". He was unplayable mid core until Purifying flames could be targeted on creeps. Edict was alright midlaning tool when it amplified physical/pure damage but just not good enough.
     
  5. Lama051

    Lama051 Moderator Staff Member

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    Wasn't he played with Orchid/Deso etc. abusing the invisibility+dispells+being unkillable on 20/30 (perhaps more) seconds cooldown? Though the nerf hit him hard and really fast.
     
  6. Equivocal

    Equivocal Member

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    You can do it with any hero as long as your opponent has no idea of what your hero does.
    He was an awful core from the start. Too bad his aghs doesn't turn him into a proper core either.
     
  7. MortalKombat3

    MortalKombat3 Member

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    Fortune's End scaling just represents his "support" role. Most supports have abilities, that do their job very well even without maxing, Oracle is no exception. Later in the game, much shorter CD for Fortune's End is quite benefitial, BTW.

    I see a problem with Oracle's talents at 10, 15 and 25 levels. At lvl10, "+1 second to Fortune's End duration" is just USELESS talent, meant to be a complete noob trap (especially considering how much stronger is ulti becames at 12 and 18 levels). At level 15, "+150 cast range" is obviously much better, than mere "+90 GPM". At level 25, "+2 seconds to False Promise" is kinda weak talent for lvl25, especially considering that another talent allows you to spam Fate Edict on enemy carry (with 100% uptime), rendering him completely useless.

    He IS overpowered already, actually.
     
  8. Equivocal

    Equivocal Member

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    Yes it is very characteristic for support heroes to have spells which are good on level 1. The problem with Fortune's end however is that maxing it does practically nothing.

    Lots of supports have awful talents. Oracle's mediocre talents wouldn't matter so much if he actually had more than 1 skill worth maxing. He just has way too many "dead levels"
     
  9. vvjacobo

    vvjacobo Member

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    I like the hero concept, but I feel he is little underpowered, to not be able to stun or silence. I liked when fate also caused double fisical damage taken on enemies.
    Fortune's end should really be able to do something more at high levels. At leat reducing to half the max channeling time.
     
  10. kamukag3e

    kamukag3e Member

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    @frigidsoul:
    He is indeed very situational, if you like it - it's fine.
    But let me tell you why he is 'bad' for competitive usage (outside of special cases).

    Most cores lack crowd-control abilities or have at most 1, so usually the supports are the one providing, Oracle has 1 'mediocre', unlike other supports who have more then one (Crystal Maiden, Jakiro and Ogre Magi) and in some cases even multiple good disables (Shadow Shaman and Lion)

    The hero can't secure a lane and his rotations are weak in comparison to other supports. He is bad at team-fights while being excellent in skirmishes and lack defensive and offensive capabilities - to defend or take objective on his own or be very impactful if a fight breaks out. Outside of a 8-12 seconds of 'shallow grave' he doesn't have any other signature skill.

    So basically, other supports usually cover a lot more of the requirements for a support on the competitive level and are chosen over him in most of the cases.
     
  11. Equivocal

    Equivocal Member

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    He does wonders in aggro dual lanes imo
    Which are OP already

    It's okay for a support to have 0 disables. The sad thing is that he actually has a root which sucks balls.
     
  12. kamukag3e

    kamukag3e Member

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    @Equivocal:
    It's not OK for a support to have 0 disables, it pressure cores to get heroes which must have disables, which restrict the choices significantly or the lineup will lack disables.
     
  13. Equivocal

    Equivocal Member

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    Dazzle is fairly popular with absolutelt no disarms or roots. So is wisp. In fact Oracle has more disables than any other sustain support save WD, albeit none of them are hard cc.
     
  14. kamukag3e

    kamukag3e Member

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    @Equivocal:
    True, but they all heroes have their merits and are still able to do a lot more then just disable.
    Oracle is good in 3 things.
    1) dual pair with a strong carry;
    2) very strong in skirmishes (fights with 6 players or less);
    3) keep a single hero alive for 8-12 seconds.

    All of the other cases he is significantly weak.
    If you categorize Io and Dazzle, they cover much more categories from what's expected from a support.
    - strong in the early game on their own (basically babysitter able to zone enemy hard lane hero alone).
    - ability to rotate to the middle lane (basically gank middle).
    - plenty and reliable crowd-control spells.
    - skirmish prowess.
    - team fight prowess.
    - objective defensive/offensive capabilities (being able to mow down towers or delay a push on their own).
    - keeping teammates alive.
    - signature ability.

    In Oracle case he has 2 ticks and a half, keeping teammates alive and signature ability are overlapping.
    Io has 6 ticks here, or 5 if you are a bit picky.
    Dazzle - 5.

    Of course that's my vision of what's making a good support, other opinion may differ, but in basic concepts it's this.
    If your suggestion is implemented - won't change that much of the hero, so it's not as impactful as you think and it can be easily done without impact his presence that much.
    Making his skill reliable (without delay) will make him too strong, but will add a whole 'tick' of those pointed by me.
     
  15. MortalKombat3

    MortalKombat3 Member

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    2.5 times less CD = nothing?

    But most supports dont have any heals or saves, not even talking about dispels - while Oracle has SHITLOADS of that stuff. He can nullyfy magic damage with Fate's Edict, he can dispel with Fortune's End or False Promise (that is hard dispel, btw), he can heal with Fate's Edict + Purifying Flames, and his ultimate is extremely strong life-saver. Of course, Oracle's disables arent that "hard", to compensate a bit. However, disarm from Fate's Edict can be an extremely strong disable VS right-click cores, and it has high uptime compared to most other disables (and at 25 level - 100% uptime). It turns heroes like Sven, WK, Medusa,... into useless creeps. And Oracle can dish out quite formidable magic damage as well.
    You mentioned Dazzle - and as Dazzle player, i should say, Dazzle's healing and saving capabilities are far more limited, than Oracle's. Yes, Dazzle can prevent someone's death for a while, but it really works only on heroes that have saves/escapes (Storm, Weaver, TB, etc). Dazzle's laning capabilities are also not so great, unless enemy offlaner is dumb enough to soak multi-creep/multi-hero Shadow Wave. Oracle, at least, has a disable, that roots enemy in place, allowing cores like Slark or Jugger to dispatch an enemy. Not to mention he can dispel crap like Windrun, Battle Hunger, etc. Dazzle has only 14% slow from Poison Touch... lol, that's not even funny. Dazzle's ulti is also quite unreliable, works only for physical, and doesnt even have immediate effect. All it does is simply graduately altering armor - quite weak effect for an ultimate skill, actually. Poison Touch is completely useless in mid/end game, damage and slow are ridiculously weak.
    If you think that Oracle can contribute nothing besides ultimate - maybe, you just hadnt seen good Oracles yet?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 2, 2018
  16. kamukag3e

    kamukag3e Member

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    @MortalKombat3:
    It's not all about the heals, number or efficiency (it still kinda is, but not as important). It's about what a hero offer when he is picked.

    Indeed Oracle has some soft disables, and crowd-control abilities, like Disarm/Spell Resist, root on delay - and that's the exact reason that he is good in skirmishes and excel (or over-perform) over other heroes - such as Dazzle in those cases.

    But the issue is he can't do the other things.

    Dazzle may be a bit slacking in therms of his ability to 'save an ally', but it's still more then enough.
    Saying he can only reliably save ally who has escape mechanism is more 'situational'.
    If we talk about specific cases, he can save everyone with AoE shallow grave and in that 5 seconds whole enemy team is dead and here you have a case where a single Dazzle spell manage to keep 5 teammates alive and win an engagement - very little chance of actually happening, but it still could.
    The fact is - Dazzle have 3 spells which mitigate damage, so you can safely say he has means to do that, he can also push waves easily alone and fast unlike Oracle. Which naturally give him the ability to push on his own even as a support.

    A lot of supports doesn't have saving spells (heals and such), but they cover with other abilities (from the list).
    Ogre for example doesn't have a single defensive spell, but his crowd-control abilities are better and more reliable.
    If you put him in the list, you can easily see how he covers points 1, 2, 3, 4, 6* and 8.
    (* he is a little bit bad at defending towers, but still can boost their AS and clear creep waves from safe distance, but he can also push extremely well with Ignite and Blood lust). So basically he covers 6 or 5 and a half points in comparison to Oracle who covers 3.

    Understand that unless your other heroes can do the same and more importantly, can dedicate time to do it - he would be a bad pick in such games. That's the reason he is 'situational', unlike a lot of other supports who may not be as good as him in specific point (saving allies), but are suitable for much more cases and give you the ability to be more flexible with the picks.


    As example - Omniknight and Abaddon are two excellent heroes that can keep an ally alive, yet they lack a lot in other aspects - so despite them being somewhat better at that in comparison to other heroes will not be picked every single game.
     
  17. Equivocal

    Equivocal Member

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    I made some comments in red, but I think your category list is hogwash. It isn't smart to determine a support's viability based on the amount of how many arbitary categories it covers. Oracle does have great disables, can rotate to mid if needed, can keep his teammates alive and he is indeed good in skirmishes. I have no clue why you left him out from so many categories he actually covers, but the list doesn't make sense to begin with.

    If you are refering to the suggestion I made on the suggestion sub-forum, I created it exactly this in mind. Idgaf how they buff Fortune's End, but it definitely needs something to make it worth leveling up because right now it is really damn bad.

    It would probably be easier to just buff his damage back to ~300 at level 4, but that change would make a very boring thread.

    Nothing out of ordinary. Almost half the heroes in the pool has one or two spells which has cooldown decrease of ~50% from level 1 to 4 plus some other benefits, while FoEnd gets +30 almost single target damage per level.
     
  18. MortalKombat3

    MortalKombat3 Member

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    GL to perform in reeal game. First, you need ASU, 4k worth item, on support... Second, AoE isnt that large to cover whole team, it isnt Guardian Angel, etc. ASU on Dazzle is only usable when you need to save Meepo, or maybe Chaos Knight WITH his illusions...
    And there are skills, that are even more worthless with extra levels - Fireblast, for example (it doesnt even reduce CD). Or Poison Touch (it's useless regardless whether you level it up or not). Or Storm Bolt.
    At least, Fortune's End doesnt get increased mana costs as you level it up (unlike Decay or something). I like reduced CD on it, it helps a lot later in the game, i definetely feel the difference between 15 sec cd and 6 sec cd. Damage is quite poor, i agree (180 at level 4), perhaps, they should replace lvl10 talent "Fortune's End +1 sec max duration/channel" with "+100 damage for Fortune's End" (because you know, no one ever picks that talent anyway).

    Not every hero is desighned so you can max any of his skills, depending on situation. Some heroes are meant to max certain skill as early as possible, while leaving another skill at level 1. For example, DK always leaves Dragon Tail at level 1. Oracle is the same - he wants to max out Purifying Flames as soon as possible, and then max Fate's Edict, leaving Fortune's End at level1.
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2018
  19. kamukag3e

    kamukag3e Member

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    @Equivocal:
    I agree with that, but the issue is - it's mandatory, while the things I pointed are areas which the support are supposed to be good at (few of them at least).

    I don't think it is. It's just one thing to put all abilities which are hard to define.
    For example a signature ability for Io is his relocate, but you can't put it under a label, because only him can cover it, same with other 'signature' things. Lion indeed doesn't possess anything specific, but he pretty much cover all the others so he is just fine.


    I also agree with the commend that the list is a bit simple, but it's just general description of some stuff which are expected from supports and should cover to some extend. How many games have you seen in public that both supports (or roaming w/e), have 0 disables and the disables of the carries are insufficient, so basically any team-fight is basically lost, unless the enemy is instantly melted. Because there are no way to disturb channeling spells, TP included and the enemy can just be saved by their supports with simple items - Force, Glimmer. While your are unavailable, because you are being stunned etc.

    The same in other cases, where you wish to split-push and your whole team can't delay the enemy and clear the creep wave by lacking any sort of AoE ability to clear the creep and keep the Backdoor protection "on" or some defensive ability to discourage the enemy to just walk up on the ramp and take down the tier 3.

    I mean - yes some carries possess those kind of abilities and traits as well, but if you are forced to pick them, then they will be lacking in other aspects, where the supports can do that without any problem.

    For me the support duo need to cover all of them combined, so they can cover everything by themselves, letting their carries be free to pick and do w/e without the need to return for some of those.
    When you win a skirmish near the enemy tower while one of your towers is under siege from a big wave of creeps. You would wish to take a tower afterwards, because the enemy can't defend it versus your team without a support or two, but won't be able to if your cores retreat. Also would wish to not lose a tower versus creeps alone. What's the best move - a support to teleport and defend the tower - but then if your support is unable to clear the creep wave, you will lose a tower, if your core teleport - you will lose the opportunity to capitalize on your advantage.
    I mean it's not the end of the world, but a simple situation like that would be much more favorable if your supports are able to do this kind of feats.

    In other cases I've seen two supports which are lacking skirmish potential, most of their spells are with big cooldown or not as efficient in small scale battles (Warlock and Lich), so your team is forced to avoid skirmishes, unless 2 cores are involved (and they are good in skirmishes). Basically the early game outcome and the enemy ability to stop/delay or prevent 5-man push is what is deciding the game, because farming and being split is not an option for your team, support rotation is not going to achieve anything.

    A lot of same examples, if the supports are not covering most of those things, the cores will have to be able to do it or the game will be disadvantageous in multiple occasions.

    @MortalKombat3:
    Good luck in performing in a real game your case ... case by case basis is not that important, that's the point of my example.
    Oracle spells can be avoided, dispelled and even his ultimate is not secured save, can be bypassed in multiple cases.
    They are not 100% secured and non avoidable.
     
  20. MortalKombat3

    MortalKombat3 Member

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    And what hero has a 100% secure save for others? No one! Every "save" can be countered, or has some severe drawback. Shallow Grave doesnt work if target is affected by long-duration DoT, is disaabled, or there is axe nearby. Nether Swap forces your support to sacrifice himself. Repel protects from magic, but not from physical. And so on.