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There is some unfairness in the recent Mana regen Formula change

Discussion in 'Meta-Game Discussion' started by mapdesigner, Feb 27, 2018.

  1. mapdesigner

    mapdesigner Member

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    Hello,

    in the past, carries would easily run out of mana.

    now, huskar, pa, jug, faceless and many other carries have the base regen of 0.9 and so they can spam their spells and almost never run out of mana.

    I wouldnt say I hate this mana regen, but its kind of imba -_-

    so I would suggest that for these to be balanced maybe some mana costs must be increase

    I am not saying all carries are imba, in fact I think suen and skeleton king stun cost significant mana.
    but I think most others are.

    especially pa dagger (30-15 mana cost only) so she can cast the spell every 15 seconds with literally 0 mana cost...



    And btw I had this thought when I saw pa spamming her dagger from lvl 1 with no aquila or clarity and she was always at full mana....


    @IceFrog please! Thanks!
     
  2. MortalKombat3

    MortalKombat3 Member

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    the main reason why carries dont run OOM is.... clarity potion. The cost is nothing for carry, and it isnt interrupted by creeps even.
     
  3. mapdesigner

    mapdesigner Member

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    but they dont even use it. I checked pa inventory and buffs... she never used clarity. she just used dagger spam....
     
  4. BloodRampage-

    BloodRampage- Member

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    its just how carries have been balanced for ages - deal with it, or quit playing this game of retardation (like i did) :)

    pa can throw around 5k dmg daggers every 6 sec at 15 manacost (or at worst, 15x4 mana if you want to assume the non-crits are insignificant), slark can purge everything+nuke for like 40 mana... literally no comparison to any spellcaster heroes out there

    most agi carries have low int but also far lower manacosts so they dont give a shit about mana - on the other hand spellcasters have a lot more int but also have ridiculously expensive spells so ironically they run out of mana sooner... not to mention ofcourse flat mana bonuses like clarity/arcane etc also benefit low-int heroes TONS more
     
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  5. flamegod0

    flamegod0 Member

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    I would say without this kind of small buff here and there, carries will just be kited everywhere nowadays. No more diffusal for ghost purge, forces, pikes, lotus, glimmer, blinks, etc2.
    Support is in a very nice place nowadays, so, I don't think the carriers need to be nerfed atm. Even power spikes are much smoother compared to old versions (like spec need fast radiance or game is hard etc2). So yea. That's my 2cents about how this kind of small stuff didn't need some kind of kneejerk nerf.

    Btw, I don't think PA can spam his dagger from lvl 1-3 that much considering it is 30 mana and you can get about half the value just by buying stick (means you can spam your nuke to her even more).
     
  6. MrD074

    MrD074 Member

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    This.

    I quit DotA as well and went back to Heroes of Newerth. DotA has glaring design flaws that IceFrog has proven time and again he is incapable of fixing. Make no mistake about it, IceFrog is a BAD game designer. Blink + Instagib from heroes like Sven, Legion Commander, and Phantom Assassin gets boring after a while and you begin to realize it's just plain not worth putting up with anymore. The game has plenty of other issues beyond that.

    Going back to HoN after a 6+ year hiatus, it's stunning to see how much better balanced it is compared to DotA. Yet DotA is much bigger.... sad. No garbage heroes like Tinker to put up with in HoN. Portal Key is actually well balanced unlike Blink Daggers zero mana cost. No bullshit OP talents. It's just night and day the difference. I'm climbing the rankings in HoN relatively quickly as a result since I'm no longer being held down by a handful of lame OP heroes that you see in every match like in DotA.
     
  7. ManOnTheCan

    ManOnTheCan Member

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    HoN has much worse game design than dota.

    But its playerbase has been a constant 5000 players for the last eight years. So not daed game like dota???
     
  8. IHateLeavers

    IHateLeavers Member

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    You can easily open demo mode and test it yourself. PA will run out of mp if she spam dagger + blink off cd, unless she have several item that increase mp regen or + INT (stats) items.
     
  9. kamukag3e

    kamukag3e Member

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    @MrD074:
    Sorry for your inability to see the imbalance in HoN.
    I was playing it a little when few of my friends were, reached 2,800 rating - when competitive players were around 3,500.
    Keep in mind that they were with thousand games and I didn't even got one hundred.

    You know why ? Because as in DotA I just see what's the most imbalanced thing is and use it.

    Electrician and Nymphora are heroes which can easily dominate any game, every game.
    Reference links (for those unaware of HoN's heroes)
    https://hon.gamepedia.com/Electrician
    https://hon.gamepedia.com/Nymphora

    Where a lot of the heroes are still the same as in DotA couple of patches before.
    Faceless Void (old Timewalk with damage and slow plus backtrack on W) https://www.heroesofnewerth.com/heroes/view/4#hero
    Ogre Magi https://www.heroesofnewerth.com/heroes/view/7#hero
    Crystal Maiden https://www.heroesofnewerth.com/heroes/view/12#hero
    Puck https://www.heroesofnewerth.com/heroes/view/125#Bubbles

    So normal heroes versus those monsters I previously pointed - good luck doing anything against this overpowered stuff in the hands of a player with IQ above room temperature.

    Your inability to judge a game for it's balance doesn't mean other people can't or that the game is fair.
    Just the much better ladder system is making you realize how bad are you at the game of DotA, where in HoN you can win as much as you like, your rating just stay the same.

    If you use an argument such as 'I like it more', 'personal preference' etc. - it's all OK.
    If you say 'it's better balanced', well then - I juts think you are bad at judging about it or even completely ignorant on the topic.


    Also, because the lack of competitive scene the game is lacking development in therms of meta and it's stagnating without changes from ages.
    If DotA was the same ... well only good things come from stagnation, ask the American native population using bows and bone daggers against the rifle of the Europeans.

    Edit reason: better links for Electrician/Nymphora with all stats.
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2018
  10. MrD074

    MrD074 Member

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    Those are some nice examples you provided to back your point.
     
  11. MrD074

    MrD074 Member

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    Electrician is not even remotely OP and has a 7 day win rate of 49.2%.
    Nymphora is indeed strong but not nearly the God mode you make her out to be with a 7 day win rate of 53.4%

    Faceless Void Backtrack is fine, damage on Timewalk is fine and is actually bad game design in DotA that the ability does no damage. The cast range of Chronos Timewalk with the old range of 1300 is indeed OP and something I've been considering making a post about on the HoN forums. This imbalance is NOTHING compared to PA Stifling Dagger mana cost of 15 hitting for 4 digits of damage. Not even in the same universe. Tinker.... nuff said. What a fucking retarded hero concept... spends more time sitting in the damn pool than out on the map.

    Glacius (Crystal Maiden) is fine as is Bubbles (Puck).

    The examples you bring up are within the realm of statistical noise and nothing game breaking.
     
  12. kamukag3e

    kamukag3e Member

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    @MrD074:
    You did not get my drift, the heroes similar to those of DotA (shown in the second batch of links) are OK, strictly speaking, they are lacking a bit, falling behind DotA last few years of development.

    The fact that you can't understand how extremely powerful the Electrician and Nymphora are is just evidence how little you understand of abilities to impact the game.

    I will ask everyone reading this thread to see their abilities and evaluate them if they were implemented in DotA.


    PA can hit 4 digit critical strike with normal attacks and dagger only after she farm a lot of items, guess what - a lot of carries can use their spells to the same effect if they are so far ahead. It's part of the balance.
    Next time try shutting down the enemy carry or finish the game before the 20-30 minute mark and see how powerful the hard carries (as PA) are.

    Reading your evaluation of balance is somewhat similar to my nephew who talks about his favorite toys and how one of them is very powerful, because he said so (or it looks nice or w/e).


    Please, tell me how I manage to have played ~150 games and reach 2,800 rating. Easy - I just destroy the enemies because the heroes you mentioned to not be imbalance are so ridiculously strong that they can easily win 1:5 fights or impact so hard a team-fight that their allies have only to do an attack-ground command to win it.
     
  13. flamegod0

    flamegod0 Member

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    Comparing winrate and OP-ness of a hero is kinda hard man. If you guys remember, bat and ES was always underpicked and winrate is not so good. But still, they got nerfed because of competitive scene and the strong general concept of the hero.

    Also, strength of heroes are different in each meta. For example, if people(pros) are really trying to pick split-pushing lineup as a surprise pick in this deathball heavy meta, there are usually some possible outcome: a. they successfully win using that lineup and winning consistently --> new meta will develop, or b. they lost terribly/consistently, and solidifies that deathball is the way for now (before the nerfhammer comes. because one meta without another strat choice is not healthy for competitive games.)

    well, that is what I think at least.

    About mana regen, nah... the change made it easier to calculate for vets/newbs and they nerfed some items hard too (like bloodstone).
     
  14. RisaStoleMyHart

    RisaStoleMyHart Moderator Staff Member

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    Your friends can't be 2800 rating in HoN, because I was playing HoN when it was in beta and a few years after that, I even have a Legacy account to prove it. Starting mmr was 1500 that would increase/decrease by like +5/-5. Most pros were 1900+ and even reaching 1800 would be like 5k+ in DotA's mmr. 3500 rating in HoN? Not sure if you aren't just getting your games mixed up.



    I played HoN till around when Nitro came out, and I can say that neither Nymphora or Electrician are broken. If you said old Engineer, sure. Maybe there have been patches where they were strong, not that I can remember every single patch. Also DotA heroes are generally stronger number wise, the last time i checked and it's a fact that DotA 2 has been affected by power-creep much harder than HoN. HoN's balancing wasn't bad because stuff were broken (all these games have had broken patches). Their business model was terrible back when Early Access was a thing. They would release a new hero every 2 weeks, than it changed to a month because they couldn't keep up. A lot of these heroes were too strong/weak or horribly bugged (Gemini exploit, Monkey King's Shift combo) where people actually got banned and sometimes resulted in MMR rollbacks.



    S2's failure was poor marketing and not starting as a free-to-play game. Although many pros did state they didn't like how the game was balanced. There was little competitive diversity and no huge metagame-breaking patches to shake things up. Which is why team StayGreen dominated so hard and had like a 50+ win streak in comp, before moving to DotA. You can go look up old patch notes from like 2010-2013 and most of it's barely balance changes but revealing new skins.

    https://www.joindota.com/en/news/18935-moonmeander-interview-honstrats?gotopost=1237093

    I remember a N0tail interview as well but can't find it.
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2018
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  15. kamukag3e

    kamukag3e Member

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    @RisaStoleMyHart:
    Not talking about the BetA.
    Also you don't get +/- 5 points, you get as in ELO system the points you deserved based on the rating difference.

    But I might be mixing things, I'm still rather sure that I reached x,800 tho, so it would probably be 1,800 based on your numbers. Keep in mind I mainly played 1:1 games.

    As for heroes being imbalanced - those two mentioned by me were my most picked heroes and I had extremely high win-rate with them. Electrician was unbeatable in 1:1 games, just impossible to win versus him, no matter what you do, his power-spike was early and with the help of Puzzle Box (Necronomicon), he could out-push or out DPS anyone.
    As far as 5:5 games, he is fairly strong, just as Bristleback is currently at DotA - durable front-liner with good AoE presence and some additional slow, but very tempo-based and susceptible to crowd-control abilities rather then brute force. His main strength was still in smaller games or in games where he won't have to face overwhelming enemy numbers on his own.


    Nymphora was extremely potent support who can dominate the lane, zone the enemies and keep her ally at full health and mana all the time without investing even a single gold for that. Then she has good skirmish and team-fight abilities and great crowd control spells paired with global mobility.

    You state yourself - DotA heroes are stronger number wise, yet Nymphora from HoN would still be number one support in DotA if transferred right now, after plenty of patches boosting the strength of DotA heroes while she is not touched so much in HoN, imagine how strong she was then. This hero just don't have downsides as a support.
     
  16. RisaStoleMyHart

    RisaStoleMyHart Moderator Staff Member

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    Hence.
    [​IMG]

    source

    source

    I know what those heroes do, and I don't see your point that Electrician is imbalanced just because you won a lot 1 v 1's, when heroes like Deadwood, Emerald Warden, Zephyr, Chipper, Salforis, Bombardier, Torturer, Pandamonium and many more exist. Who were all pretty decent mid heroes.

    I meant our DotA heroes are stronger number-wise than their DotA heroes. If numbers weren't a factor, I do think Nymphora will be a highly contested hero. But again, don't see how she is imbalanced when she wasn't broken in HoN's competitive meta. Last time I followed Hontour, the top supports were Glacius and Plague Rider as mid supports. While heroes like Midas was deemed broken by pro players.
     
  17. kamukag3e

    kamukag3e Member

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    @RisaStoleMyHart:
    Electrician is just like Bristleback right now in DotA 2 (function wise), but on steroids.
    He can't be slowed, has disable and purge on top of being very durable and doing constant AoE damage, which is higher then what Bristleback can output.
    Electrician timings are just too strong and that's not small at all on a hero that scales really well.

    Numphora is perhaps the closest to the current KotL, but lacking some of his strong points (mana leak, blinding light and scepter's vision), but having so much more in exchange.
    It's just that she doesn't have a weakness as a support and her utility far outweigh anything the current rooster of supports can provide.

    When I started posting in this thread I talked with few of my friends each one past 6k MMR in DotA. They saw the heroes and both agree that are very powerful and will easily be considered overpowered even in the current DotA.

    Take into consideration that competitive players while very skilled most of the times doesn't actually have a good grasp of balance.
    1) They have coaches and subordinates that provide strategies and tactical input;
    2) They play in a meta, where some heroes are viable, others are not;
    3) They don't like to experiment, reliability is more valuable;
    That's in general - in HoN in particular, they didn't have strong enough teams to evolve the game as much as we had in DotA. The sheer numbers of players both competitive and overall will always help develop the meta and strategies.
    Rather sure that if HoN was on top would still continue to develop as much as DotA.

    Just as example - a friend of mine during the golden age of Warcraft 3 was a good player, but knew he would never make it to the top with such a fierce competition, so he changed to Warhammer 40,000 and manage to get to top 10 in European ladder, developing easily few strategies on his own which were obvious, but because the lack of players and competition were not used before him.
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2018
  18. MortalKombat3

    MortalKombat3 Member

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    I dont think competive players are so bad at judging, what heroes/items/skills are OP. If they are, they arent worthy "competive players" title. Competive player must have his own "brains" too, not just "quick fingers".
    To be more correct - competive players dont have TIME to experiment. They spend a lot of their time training certain heroes, gameplay features, teamwork, etc. Sometimes, it takes heck a LOT of time to master a certain hero to degree, where he can be used in competive scene.
    And you're right - only the BEST players should drive the meta in competive game, not "average joe". And if there is a lack of such players in competive game, it wont evolve well enough. I've seen so many games with ridiculous imbalances, and that's why i like DoTA2 so much, its balance is like a jewel in the ocean of trash.
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2018
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  19. kamukag3e

    kamukag3e Member

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    @MortalKombat3:
    True that, but keep in mind plenty of overpowered heroes, items and combos were viable and available, just to be 'discovered' by the pro scene months or years after some players apply them in their games.

    At some point counter play would be available or will be hit with the nerf-hammer, but still plenty of such cases.

    I also don't have such a high opinion about most (not all) pro gamers, some of them are actually quite lacking in the brain department, but their mechanical prowess and execution are just over the top and compensating, not to mention their punishment of even the smallest mistake.

    You know there are players with flawless early game, that alone can put them in the top spots as far as skill goes, especially when they know how to proceed afterwards.
     
  20. MortalKombat3

    MortalKombat3 Member

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    When there is a tournament like International every year, with ~20kk $$$ prize pool, EVERY OP hero, item and combo WILL be "discovered" and used on it. People can be VERY "creative" when they're encouraged by few million bucks :). But i dont remeber something really cancerous on last Int.
     
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