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The only implication behind Maelstrom CD

Discussion in 'Meta-Game Discussion' started by mapdesigner, Dec 12, 2016.

  1. mapdesigner

    mapdesigner Member

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    Maximum attack speed is 600% = 6 times less attack time

    Therefore, CD of 0.2 is only in effect if BAT < 1.2 seconds.

    Therefore, Maelstrom nerf only have 2 possible heroes to affect:

    1. Drow
    2. riki
    3. Alchemist at lvl 18 + max attack speed (not sure if it affects lvl 12 too alch with max attack)
    4. LC, because moment of courage can proc during an attack (having 2 attacks in a row)
    5. maybe ember?
    6. maybe weaver?
    If Icefrog wanted to do anything in this change, he only wanted to discourage LC from making this build. It is still too minor nerf that no one would care about.

    what do you think?

    Edit even weaver have .25 s between attacks. Not sure, can this affect weaver somehow?

    do you think there is any other case where this affect hero?

    Edit, actually for ember its wiki says
    • Jumps in 0.2 second intervals. The jumps are random between all marked units, there are no priorities.
    Does that mean ember will get affected?
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2016
  2. Kris

    Kris Moderator Staff Member

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  3. Blarrg

    Blarrg Member

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    Monkey king as well.
     
  4. BornFromAGrave

    BornFromAGrave Member

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  5. Oesile

    Oesile Member

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    Yeah Teslaranger is dead basically. You can't proc maelstrom more than once per attack.

    Well, 'dead' is a harsh word considering you still are guaranteed to proc meal every attack, but yeah the nerf is basically only for Drow realistically.
     
  6. BornFromAGrave

    BornFromAGrave Member

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    Yep, and there goes the only reason to even get Agha on her.
     
    mapdesigner likes this.
  7. mapdesigner

    mapdesigner Member

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    You sure? how many seconds would it take for projectile to travelr from target a to b? less than 0.2?

    Rip tesla xD

    Edit: there has actually been much more affected than I thought, lol
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2016
  8. mapdesigner

    mapdesigner Member

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    Also, it screws up gyro agha LOL

    it should just have 0.01 CD i think (so only riki and monkey man cant use it)
     
  9. LordLJenkins

    LordLJenkins Member

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    Fuck it only reduces the effectiveness by 1/4, do some math.
     
  10. mapdesigner

    mapdesigner Member

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    show your math plz
     
  11. LordLJenkins

    LordLJenkins Member

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    It's basically a binomial distribution with 1/4 proc chance and 3 trials.
    Chance of 1 proc is 1/4 * (3/4)^2 * C(1,3) = 27/64
    Chance of 2 proc is (1/4)^2 * (3/4) * C(2,3) = 9/64
    Chance of 3 proc is 1/64
    Basically it's reduced from 37/64 to 27/64, about 1/4.
    Conclusion: people who say things without doing math is stupid.
     
    mapdesigner likes this.
  12. mapdesigner

    mapdesigner Member

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    that doesnt seem little in my eye. seems like reducing from 25% to 19% procc chance. That is a bit significant.

    It is not only that. We can perhaps modify your math model a bit if we know how much time is between the split attack and the actual attack

    max attack speed = attack/ 0.283 sec

    if split attack take more than 0.083 seconds, it means that if maelstrom procced on the split shot, it will cancel even the maelstrom of the next attack

    Edit

    Did you do math for aclhemist too? say I have 600% attack speed, how much is it not worth to take maelstrom?

    I feel this is more simpler to look at before we make actual model for drow split attack effectiveness

    so for alch, all it does is preventing 2 proccs in a row. (i.e. if any attack number N procced, next attack N+1 cannot, but thats it, from N+2 can until it does once, it cannot twice)

    so, this will be something like... ummmm I couldnt calculate it :S

    OK my calc says it will be reduced by 3.125% for alch, so basically 25% to 24.2% or something. you had the same?

    (i did with 4 possibilities for 2 attacks in row, either hit hit miss miss hit miss or miss hit, and only hit hit will be nerfed meaning that one of them will be omitted)



    but then for drow, is it going to be the same way?
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2016
  13. Oesile

    Oesile Member

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    I did do some lazy calculations and concluded it wasn't really dead, but it is definitely true that it's almost exclusively a Tesla Ranger nerf, and that it kinda hurts the build.

    Also 1/4 is a quite a bit really. Going from 69.375 average magic damage to 50.625 on something you invest 7000 gold in is kind of a big deal. Well you also get two reduced (50%) auto-attacks as well as the stats and some minor attack speed, but I personally don't think that the Agha stats are that great on Drow, although they may be now considering you don't get stat upgrades anymore to beef yourself up.
    The agha build was situational anyway for when you needed a ton of AOE damage so in those cases you'll probably still build it regardless, but losing 19 magic damage on average kinda hurts because what made the build so awesome was that you couldn't reduce most of it's damage by stacking armor.
    If the enemy had 50% physical damage reduction, to do 14.25 average damage like with maelstrom, you'd need 28.5 damage. Of course generally teams have much more than 50% physical resistance lategame, but I can't make the calculations right now.

    This means that the nerf won't reduce the frequency of the build in my opinion (as it has a clear niche), but rather it's effectiveness when people opt for it. It also further removes the possibility of it becoming a 'cookie cutter build' to just farm faster and bypass armor a bit.
     
  14. mapdesigner

    mapdesigner Member

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    Now I am hating this nerf for drow -____-

    actually it was never meant for my LC....
     
  15. mapdesigner

    mapdesigner Member

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    what about ember,

    can it procc 2 times in a row? they both have same cd and time between attacks for sleight fist

    I think it still works (shitty build for ember anyway)
     
  16. mapdesigner

    mapdesigner Member

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    it can actually affect weaver too max attack speed is 1 attack per 0.3 + the geminate attack 0.25
     
  17. Oesile

    Oesile Member

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    With all due respect @mapdesigner this is all so minor that it doesn't matter at all.

    Honestly Dota got a MASSIVE patch that changes EVERYTHING that these fringe scenarios mean nothing.

    Who cares about Weaver, LC, Ember or Riki Maelstrom, it sucks on all of them anyway.
     
    Devius likes this.
  18. LordLJenkins

    LordLJenkins Member

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    When you say some math doesn't matter, make your math matter plz, otherwise it's not gonna be persuasive.
     
  19. mapdesigner

    mapdesigner Member

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    I think he meant the other heroes dont matter, only drow ranger does xD
    he didnt mean your math is bad or anything