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Sun Flail

Discussion in 'Item Ideas' started by Daddy Sven, Jan 11, 2017.

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  1. Daddy Sven

    Daddy Sven Moderator Staff Member

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    Inspired by this item and its feedback: Demolition Morning Star (DMS)
    \\\ [​IMG] ///
    [​IMG] + [​IMG] + [​IMG]
    Total Cost: 4000

    Stats:
    35 Damage
    300 HP
    Demolish (Passive)
    Solarblast (Passive)​






    • Proc Chance: 25%
      Main Target Damage: 100
      Damage Over Time: 30
      Blind Effect: 30%
      Blind Duration: 4 seconds


      Notes:
      -Damage type Magical.
      -Can proc on Buildings and Wards.
      -Blind also affects towers
      -Effect does not stack. Further instances refresh the duration
      -The owner can lifesteal off the damage dealt by Fireblast. However, it cannot crit or cleave.
      -The owner cannot lifesteal off the DoT, however can Spell Lifesteal off it.
      -Damage can be reduced with e.g. [​IMG] Enfeeble or [​IMG] Static Link.
      -Damage cannot be amplified with e.g. [​IMG] Empower, the [​IMG] Double Damage Rune or Demolish.

    ______________________________________________________________________


    Credits:
    Dr. Desomond (Concept inspiration and feedback)
    summer-penguin (Useful feedback and icon)
    terrorbringer, Oesile (helpful feedback)
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2017
    Abstract.Raze and terrorbringer like this.
  2. terrorbringer

    terrorbringer Member

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    I think cd needs to be higher.Some heroes can abuse that pretty badly.Also it seems like a better mjollnir without the active but thats just my opinion.
     
  3. Daddy Sven

    Daddy Sven Moderator Staff Member

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    CD is the same as Mjolnir, though I will make some number adjustments. And yea, this being a competitor to Mjolnir is my only concern. However given the cost and niche, it won't really overshadow it. I'm still brainstorming how the passive should work tbh. Beforehand it used to be a scaling damage increase based on enemy's missing HP, but I didn't like that. So I'm open to suggestions regarding changes.

    Changelog:
    -Fireblast proc chance reduced from 35% to 25%
    -Fireblast main target damage reduced from 180 to 160
     
  4. terrorbringer

    terrorbringer Member

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    I think you can give 180 dmg back reduce the tower dmg i guess.Sniper with this item can become a long range Luna with aoe slows.Also it can become a orb effect because this item + plus Maelstrom/Mjo seems so much aoe dmg abusement.But anyways i think you can make better changes from what i offered.(no sarcasm)
     
  5. Daddy Sven

    Daddy Sven Moderator Staff Member

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    The concept of the item is to be a siege-ing tool, first and foremost. Again, considering the cost, I doubt people will buy it alongside a Mjolnir for pushing. Thing is, unless the enemy has mega-creeps, this won't really speed up pushing to a degree which is all that noticeable. Also as it's yet another source of magic damage with very little physical damage for the cost, if the enemy plays smart and buys magic res gear and BKB, a huge portion of your damage is negated and thus your investment severely crippled. Still, I'd like to avoid this being seen as an alternative to Mjolnir, so I'll further make some tweaks.

    Changelog:
    -Increased Demolish bonus damage from 30 to 35%
    -Renamed Fireblast to Solarblast
    -Reduced bonus damage from 160 to 120
    -Reduced splash damage from 120 to 100
    -Solarblast now applies a 20% miss on enemies for 4 seconds.

    The miss works on towers so it further increases efficiency vs them. Also as the effect is AoE, this can have some presence in teamfights. Due to the effect being proc based, if an enemy dispels it, with enough AS you can reapply it. Kept the % not too big mainly for that reason.
     
  6. terrorbringer

    terrorbringer Member

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    Waow thats really looking good.I think with some tweaks from other peoples perspective it can become a really good item for push strats.And its price balancing it as a item also.Really well done.
     
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  7. summer-penguin

    summer-penguin Moderator Staff Member

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    Sun Flail is not a bad title, not bad at all. It has to be a morning star, a flail or a maul. Period.
    Cool thing you credited @Dr. Desomond. May you, Desomond, inspire this place to great things.

    The stats, price and components couldn't be better.
    You nailed this.

    If my understanding on the game is not wrong, the % of increased damage that the Desolator grants its user against towers is something between 12% and 17%, right?
    If yes, then 35% sounds quite a lot. The previous value was easier to subscribe, I must say.
    The current Solarblast is neat, after its early garnishment it is looking neat. Using the Javelin was very wise of you, and Solarblast was a very nice addition (and the blindness of it, real nice).

    I really liked it. I couldn't think of any amendment to be done here but that of its demolish dmg.
    I must admit that this is much more appealing than the initial DMS.
    [​IMG]

    EDIT: The Tenderizer is also neat. (*mambo dancing)
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2017
  8. Oesile

    Oesile Member

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    Mjollnir is so good because of the magic procs. There are way less ways to reduce magic damage than physical, and as the game progresses BKB matters less and less.
    I'd definitely get this item alongside Mjollnir; attack speed helps Sun Flail a lot and it makes you clear creepwaves super fast, meaning you push also much faster.
    And, as it's mostly magic, it cannot be countered by armor items, meaning Pipe and BKB are really the only answers to it, and only BKB really stunts your damage output.
    Granted, opponents need a BKB to manfight heroes with this item.

    Honestly this item is made to be possessed by Teslaranger, and Sun Flail + Deso makes Clinkz eat towers for breakfast, although I imagine it to be more of an Nature's Prophet ratting item.

    It's more like 20-23%, as shown at 3:53 in Purges video for the item:

    And this isn't just for the holder of Deso, but for it's allies as well.

    The previous DMS was bad because it was much more expensive than Deso, only really affected towers, and didn't give enough of a damage increase compared to deso.
    Still, I kinda liked how vanilla the previous DMS was (although I really didn't like the buildup). All it needed was some Strength and maybe some damage block on it, to make it feel like heavy beefy weapon, and a stronger item for swole strength heroes in general. Or maybe a stronger demolish for melee heroes too.
    And a better buildup, Sacred Relic is the shittiest buildup item in the history of Dota and unless it's a completely game changing item it should never ever use a sacred relic.
     
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  9. summer-penguin

    summer-penguin Moderator Staff Member

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  10. Dr. Desomond

    Dr. Desomond New Member

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    Thanks for the credit.

    Lowering the bonus damage to buildings to 35% but removing the UAM is smart. Pairing this with a Deso would be a great for pushing and getting around 55% extra damage against towers.

    I also love Solarblast as a passive. While it's effect is not HUGE the small miss chance could be the difference between killing an enemy or being killed. Not to mention the 120 nuke + 100 AOE nuke makes it great for teamfights and wave clearing.

    Overall really like what you did with the concept. If this item was implemented, I could definitely see it changing how are a few heroes are played/itemised.
     
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  11. summer-penguin

    summer-penguin Moderator Staff Member

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    [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Icons... sized in accordance to Dota 2 Wiki's.
    (they're not flails thou)
     
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  12. Daddy Sven

    Daddy Sven Moderator Staff Member

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    Lovely icons none the less. Thank you. <3

    Made some slight rebalancing to icon addition

    Changelog:
    -Demolish damage increased from 35% to 40%
    -Solarblast now only damages your primary target
    -Solarblast miss chance increased from 20 to 25%
    -Solarblast proc CD removed
    -Reworked some Solarblast interactions:
    *Proc damage can now be reduced(like other similar procs)
    *You can now lifesteal out of the proc damage(like other similar procs)
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2017
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  13. summer-penguin

    summer-penguin Moderator Staff Member

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    Great changes.
    The lifesteal was a nice touch.
     
  14. Daddy Sven

    Daddy Sven Moderator Staff Member

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    I'm thinking of maybe adding also a DoT. Maybe smth like 20 dmg over the 4 seconds on the primary target. What do you guys think?
     
  15. Daddy Sven

    Daddy Sven Moderator Staff Member

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    Changelog:
    -Demolish now provides a separate bonus for melee and ranged heroes:
    *Melee: 40% increased damage
    *Range: 30% increased damage
    -Solarblast is no longer an AoE effect
    -Solarblast proc damage reduced from 120 to 100
    -Solarblast now applies a damage over time effect: 30 (dmg per sec)
    -Solarblast's Blind effect increased from 25% to 30%
    -Blind and DoT are now the same debuff.
     
  16. Haasva

    Haasva Member

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    Sun Flail is T-Down for me.
    Buildings are already extremely weak, and about Solarblast, why not, but we already have Halberd.
    What we need is a direct anti-push item.
     
  17. Daddy Sven

    Daddy Sven Moderator Staff Member

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    I disagree. Structures have received a significant buff over the last few versions and 7.00 is no exception. Even less damage from illusions and the introduction of shrines, which are in all honesty pretty durable. A good push is also a good anti-push, as the team which destroys buildings faster, wins. Sun Flail does just that, as it's not a usual pick for most heroes, kind of like Crimson Guard. Comebacks are much harder, however any opportunity for a counter push must be as effective as possible.

    The item also costs 4k gold, so it's nothing cheap and it's mostly utility. Halberd provides evasion for yourself and protection for allies via its active, however this item offers it in evasion for everyone more or less. Its proc also does considerable damage and prolongs Dagger's CD, allowing for more effective chasing if need be. Still unlike Halberd which excels at attack countering, this item excels in tower pushing. I'm really glad you brought up Halberd because Sun Flail is like a mid point between Deso and a Halberd. Provides similar defense as Halberd for the cost, but not as great and provides similar offense as Deso, however much stronger and specified vs a specific enemy type. It doesn't overshadow either of those items and can in fact work good in conjunction with them.

    I'd really appreciate some feedback on this item though. My pride and joy, my Mirror Edge
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2017
  18. Hyperion1O1

    Hyperion1O1 Member

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    4k gold for a 40% building smasher that also acts like a Mael in terms of damage and proc rate with the added benefit of blind?

    I think it does a bit too much for 1 item. Granted that its 4k gold and its inefficient in terms of stats.

    Real question is who would buy it? You can just get a Deso for cheaper and you'd be set to kill people. Not that good of a lategame item, the buildup is awkward (Vit Booster that can be turned to a VG>Crimson, Atos or VG>Abyss or a Jav>Basher would even be better).

    I think this item will be another Halberd. Good on concept but no one would build.

    Also it bothers me that you guys are using Empower Sulfuras as the icon rofl

    EDIT: I guess you can build this on a Dragon Knight or a Viper but eh
     
  19. Daddy Sven

    Daddy Sven Moderator Staff Member

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    Clinkz, Drow, LD, Lycan, Sniper, AC Slardar, WR are a few heroes who can also benefit from this. Any hero with good attack speed and lack in raw HP can benefit from this. Halberd is a good item, but something which pulls it down is the long CD and manacost. Also it applying a greater Maim would be much appreciated. If any of the 3 got adjusted, it would gain more popularity.
     
  20. summer-penguin

    summer-penguin Moderator Staff Member

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    Lovely update.
    Giving different bonuses to melee and ranged heroes was very well observed, we bypassed that and it is absolutely necessary.