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Social Justice Debates

Discussion in 'World News & Debate' started by Blarrg, Oct 8, 2016.

  1. Nezekan

    Nezekan Moderator Staff Member

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    No I'm not. Its just that if you take black people out of the equation, then there is nothing to talk about. Funnily enough, black people in America are not immigrants. Most of their ancestors have been in America more than white people.

    Knowing someone never stopped violence. You can find at least two groups of people who fiercely oppose each other in every country, (specially historically since nowadays unity is more common, even if its fake) and most of the time they are the same race. You can look at Catalan problem in Spain for example. They would welcome Black people, Asians etc... with open arms but would kick Spanish from their homes with prejudice. This is not "racism" because both parties are the same race, aka white, but they have different opinions and identity. I don't see how its any better than racism. Its quite obvious its on the same level.

    Northern and southern culture in America is one of those as well. Civil war is not a common occurrence in history. Royalty fought each other all the time, but for an entire nation to fight internally to the last man indicates something was very wrong there and it still is, although on a much lesser scale. Name calling like redneck and yankee are remnants of that hostility. A white person living in north would find more common ground with a black person living in north than a white person living in south.

    Racial violence is just one of crimes recognized as hate crime and its not the worse one.

    As I explained above, they are not meaningless. Even in the US a white person is not just a white person. If anything the presidential election should have made it clear by now. There is a distinct difference between southern and northern white culture. If you don't believe that map, then look at voting map and see how distinctively the north is blue and the south is red.

    According to statics, Canada has more cultural diversity, whereas US has more racial diversity. They are not the same thing, which is why I asked for definition of diversity when you mentioned it.



    No. Republican party deals with more racism because there are simply more racist individuals they represent. So its their turf to deal with it. It was not that long ago. In around 1994 white people were protesting they don't want black people in their neighborhood. With less than 5% of GOP being anything other than white straight male is not helping their case either. For a party representing a very diverse country, they are awfully all white.

    Except the EU is not a country. Lets be more specific and stick to one country. Germany is best since its de facto representative of the EU.

    I'm not rubbing it in. US was in fact BETTER not long ago, but it stayed the same ever since but Europe changed. Now Europe is better. Its simply a cycle. American government needs serious reforms and you know this. And this goes far beyond racism and other sub-topics. That two party system needs to go, and the constitution needs amending.

    First of all, we don't wait for getting medical care, where did you get that? Are you looking at Kosovo or something? High life expectancy means all aspects of life, including medical care are better. And here is why:

    Medical treatment is either free or dramatically cheaper in the EU. The "best" doctors and medical research is well out of reach of 80% of people in the US.

    Medicine is readily available, even those that are expensive in the US. Because all medicine sorted as life saving is mostly covered by the government so if you are being treated in Germany there is no medicine too expensive for you to buy. If it saves your life, you have enough income to buy it period.

    Universal healthcare, what else is there to say? You guys are still paying more than everyone and not getting the healthcare.

    Countries like Germany, Norway, Netherlands, Belgium, France and Switzerland are several leagues ahead of America in healthcare. Its not about having the research, its about how you use it. Even Canada is better than the US in this regard.

    Don't even get me started on education and employment rating.

    Size of the house is not really relevant to the topic at hand. The idea is that a dish washer can start a family, own a house and a car and go on a yearly vacation while having all the insurances as well.

    Buying a large house in middle of the nowhere does no one good. The idea is that the cost of living is lower, the income is higher but the service is the same. Even better in some cases.

    I like how you say "regular" restaurants. Its the same here. If you go to a high class neighborhood things are different.

    And guess what? The toilets are cleaner. The money goes to maintaining them. This is like a Universal meme now. I mean the state of toilets in US.

    You ever heard of the phrase "When in Rome, act like Romans do"? None of those things are racist here and you can't judge a group of people with standards of others. If these things make us racist, then not having universal healthcare makes you guys uncivilized savages who let others die if they don't have money. But I know its more complicated than that and it needs lots of work to achieve. But as I said, you can distinguish between them to see which is better. In terms of the healthcare, its obvious. But would you rather nitpicking and insignificant details be labeled a bold title such as racist?

    No it does. That Black guy who was complaining got the best education for free, never really got in trouble with authorities and seemingly traveled all over Europe which is very expensive. He seemed to have a good life. He merely complains about nuisances and small things that happened to him which are annoyances at best. Its quite normal for foreigners to go through that kind of stuff. It will happen to you literally everywhere else on the world except the US. So US is the exception, not the norm. Not to mention culture plays a part. For example Germans are really against facade and fake positive attitude. Its normal to show if you like or dislike someone clearly. And to strangers you would show nothing extra, be bold and get to the point. This can easily be seen as rude by an American, but its the norm here.

    The belief is that emotions have real value and should be shown when they are deserved. So the word love "Liebe" is used much more rarely in Germany and when its used the results are generally explosive. The same goes for hate. This is not rude, this is culture.

    What happened to him happens to Polish migrants, Gypsies, Turks, Lithuanians etc... And they are all white. Why should anyone get extra treatment because of skin of their color? Only one question is asked, which is the most important of them all. "Are you a foreigner". And its the main basis of being treated differently. He was treated differently because he was a foreigner, not because he was black.

    Its just not acceptable how you are flirting with the idea of racism, the word no longer means what it should mean. Its very natural and in fact logical to be wary of immigrants and foreigners. But Black people are neither of them in the US. They are more native that most white people to America. Therefore racism in America is much more significant. A portion of America's own people are troubled daily by other portion. That's not the case in Europe.

    I will end it with one simple fact. Black people are not treated ANY differently than other foreigners.

    They should never be judged with same definitions.

    The alt right wants all white America. I'm all for removing the recent nitpicking and fight against humor, but that's not the alt right.


    Yes, its inaction against racism, not racism itself.

    But you see they say almost the exact same things he does but see the reason behind it. When someone stares at you its because of curiosity. They have probably not seen a black person in their life before you. Or only have seen one and was a drug dealer. Compare that to a person who does this but have grown up with black people. Which is worse?
     
  2. ManOnTheCan

    ManOnTheCan Member

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    Might as well compare Germany with California in that case.
     
  3. Nezekan

    Nezekan Moderator Staff Member

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    I mean we could, but there is a reason I picked Germany.

    Its the only country in Europe which is not Unitary and its states have a lot of autonomy. Very much like the US and it has a lot of immigrants. You can compare Bavaria to California in this case.

    It would be unfair to compare to Netherlands who has a lot of money for how much population it has and will always do good. The small European countries consistently score best places to live at, but not everyone can get in and live there. There is literally no space for immigrants.
     
  4. r0xo

    r0xo Member

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  5. Blarrg

    Blarrg Member

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    Hispanics, Asians, Natives. The USA is significantly more diverse than any other country in the world.


    How countries represent their demographics is completely arbitrary and not standardized.



    We are talking about race based discrimination and I can guarantee you that knowing someone on a personal level will decrease the odds of someone committing a race-based hate crime against that person. That is simply how a relationship works regardless of how deep it is.



    Ya so its no longer race-based. Which is the point, lmao.



    This isn't about how your violence manifests. Its about the EU being more racist than the US. Which it is.



    Except that is not at all how it manifests in today's society. People don't hate each other for being city-folk or rural-folk. Being called a redneck isn't because they are "from the south" and "yankee" hardly even exists as an insult anymore. Redneck isn't a term for northerners to call southerners because of the Civil War. That happened over a hundred years ago, people don't care. Redneck is a term used for people that have a specific trashy culture.



    Not the point.



    They ARE meaningless because you're comparing two completely different definitions of the word "diversity" because countries use their own arbitrary definitions to describe and measure it. Its all relative and to put these measurements in a vaccuum onto a graph and pretend the are the same is fucking stupid. So yes, it is completely pointless.


    There is no "north is blue and south is red." Its about urban and rural culture. I've already had this conversation with you. You know basically nothing about this country, lmfao.



    Talking about racism, diversity is brought up.


    Hmm what diversity am I talking about, racial or cultural? I wonder?




    That is where you are wrong, hilariously enough.



    No. It is not an elected officials duty to respond to an individuals racist ideals. Elected officials can't read minds and they can't control how people act in their own lives.



    Its okay there are plenty of protests happening this very day saying they don't want white people or men to participate.


    The color of someone's skin doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is their capability. And this here is exactly my point, you think its a negative thing that the republican party is mostly white. That alone is racism. You're so tainted by this diversity movement its hilarious. Imagine being hired for something because you're meeting a quota instead of your capabilities.



    The EU is comparable in population and size to the USA.


    Germany has many things going wrong with it actually. In fact, most of its economic success is because they bank off the failures of smaller countries within the EU. You all use a standardized currency so the euro doesn't get inflated as much as it should. Poor countries are basically subsidizing the success of Germany. Its funny how you parade around here about Germany when you're essentially fucking over everybody in the union. So congrats Germany on having inflated egos about as inflated as your economic growth.



    Okay but the EU is more racist, right?



    From statistics?


    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0168851013001759


    High life expectancy does not mean all aspects of life. Life expectancy is actually massively skewed by early life deaths, lmfao. And it also has almost nothing to do with health care. Have you seen what Americans eat every day? You think doctors are choosing their diets? Life expectancy is a two way street. A doctor can't help someone who eats fucking McDonalds everyday and dies from a heart attack. Life expectancy is on the individual.



    The "best" is arbitrary. Anybody with a job can get great healthcare. You don't need to pay for "the best." I have family members who suffered from some serious things and they didn't get "the best" doctor, but they lived longer than 99% of anyone in the developed world with the same diagnosis. I guess they didn't get "the best" though so it doesn't count toward your data despite being far above the bar with very average health care coverage.



    "Mostly."


    Ya same in the US if I'm allowed to use the word mostly. I love these statistics you're using they are so arbitrary. 80% of Americans can't get the BEST doctors! The EU has access to MOST of the life saving medicines! Okay but what about the really good doctors that aren't really the best but can still make you survive longer than the 99th percentile?



    Privatized vs Universal is not the problem. If you think health care costs a lot in the US because its privatized you're just ignorant. Making it universal doesn't solve anything and in fact will make it worse. There are other problems that need to be solved about the cost of healthcare.



    No they are not. Your view is completely skewed and you only know how to measure one layer of healthcare. Its undeniable that the US has the best quality medicine and doctors.



    US has undeniably the best university education in the world and unemployment rating is once again an arbitrary things defined differently by different countries. Have fun finding comparable numbers.



    Yes it is. Cost per square foot is how you determine the god damn price of a house. We have bigger houses, so they cost more, so less people can afford them. Wow surprise. We have condominiums that are much more similar to your average EU house that most people can afford.



    This is the age of the internet and planes that can fly across entire countries in a few hours. Where you live in comparison to anyone else is pretty much meaningless. Where your house is doesn't really matter as long as you have access to basic shit (which you do). Also I'm talking about the AVERAGE house, not just houses in the middle of nowhere.


    The cost of living is not lower if your average square foot per $ is lower. What the fuck are you on? LMFAO. Your income is actually lower. Europeans take home less disposable income than Americans.



    No, you don't understand. There is no such thing here as "high class neighborhood" restaurants. There are specific restaurants that require certain attire and that is it. I highly doubt even these restaurants would deny you the ability to go to the bathroom.



    Don't know what you're looking at but its pretty great that this is coming from people who use squat toilets. Basically one step up from shitting in the streets in the evolution chain, lmfao.



    Oh, so its okay. Racism is a part of your culture so its not racist. That makes it fine. Got it. I now completely understand



    Ya. Those annoyances are called racism in the USA. Hence, why you're more racist because you don't consider these things racist. You consider them just annoyances.



    Ya so its less racist than the norm. Meaning the EU is more racist. Glad you agree.



    Ya. Thats called xenophobia and racism. The EU is riddled with it. So many Europeans think their country is the best. Its hilarious. You like to talk shit about Americans for this but you can see that America much of America does it ironically and europeans do it casually.


    I'm sure he was treated differently just because he was a foreigner. Not because he was black. All those people who hate on the French football team hate on them because they are foreigners, not because they have darker skin. Oh wait, most of the French team are natural born citizens. Lmfao.


    The EU is far more racist. Get over it.



    No genius. Why are people wary of immigrants and foreigners? Its NOT because they are foreign or immigrants, its because of incompatible cultures. And guess what, the same thing happens here, in America. There is actually a massive different between black culture and other cultures, and there is a lot of negatives that show publicly.



    Its not a fact. And that is proven just from looking at football teams.



    Yes they should. It doesn't matter what definition you use because if we use the european standard for racism you're still more racist. Its about relativity and based off that, Europe is more racist. People are still people, and just because you think something isn't racist doesn't mean someone won't perceive it that way.



    There is no action you can take against racism. I'll make sure I vote for someone that will go door-to-door for racists and tell them to stop being racist. That'll teach them.



    You're implying racists ever grew up around black people. Lmfao. You're so naive its hilarious. Remember what I said about knowing people on a personal level?


    I literally had this post saved for almost a month because of the site LMFAO.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2018
  6. r0xo

    r0xo Member

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    I think the US isn't even close to as racist as people (Vocal minority) want to make it look like. Seriously they don't know what real racism is in terms of actually making an impact. Not saying it isn't there but it is vastly overblown.

    And with the EU, I think there is much more to the racist tendencies of nowadays than just what we could call traditional motivations for racism. I think it would make sense if the EU is more racist in the modern day.
     
  7. Nezekan

    Nezekan Moderator Staff Member

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    Diversity and unity can go hand in hand or in complete opposition. Take look at Bosnia and see. There are three groups of people who want each other dead and have nothing in common other than their skin color.

    America has very high racial diversity but it has a good amount of unity too. So you can't use racial diversity as justification. As both history and modern society proves, difference of opinion divides countries much more than difference of race.

    One great example would be black prince of Florence, in which a black man became the Doge (elected leader) of Florence because he was the richest man. And this is the same time where black people were enslaved and seen as property. But it didn't matter at the time in a merchant republic where money and influence were everything. Literally no one cared he was black. He followed Italian ideas and he had money.

    That's not what I meant. Knowing someone never stopped people from killing each other. It does change the crime category, but not the crime itself.

    Is it? Saying this contradicts every single word you posted in your last few posts. You claim EU is more racist, but there is no crime category in which US is doing better than EU. More importantly, EU has the best rehabilitation rate in the world while the US has one of the worst.

    It was never race based. If there is something fundamentally wrong with your society and culture, then things will bad. Whether your country is racially diverse or not. People have killed each other based on how they cooked eggs.

    If a group is "more racist" as your claim with 0 proof or explanation, but they commit the least amount of racial crime in the world, then its irrelevant. Its time to stop crying and being more pragmatic. OMG GERMANS STARE AT ME, THEY MUST BE RACIST. Yeah, but they will not attack a black community and its church and murder every single black person in it. That's a signature American move. I know of 3 such incidents and there is likely more than I don't know about.

    Refer to above.

    You didn't, at all, point out the fact that a white man in New York is more likely to get along with a black man in New York than a white man in Texas. So difference of culture/opinion is far more important than race. It always has been and always will be. Those insults are just beside the point.

    They can't be meaningless because it clearly defines the entirety of the conflict and political spectrum. The difference is obviously less visible now, but you had a group of people who fought and gave rights to minorities and the other who opposed it. These people had the same skin color. And now, there is CLEARLY more unity between races in northern part of US than southern parts. And its not just about city/rural parts. There are large cities in the south too, just like there are rural parts in the north. The problems of large cities and rural parts are a discussion of their own and not really relevant right now.

    Both matter, but in terms if importance, culture/opinion has always been more important. While racial crimes are a thing, look at how many white people have killed each other and continue to do so. Same goes for other races.

    So America having more crime has more to do with bad culture and upbringing and divide between people than having more racial diversity. Natives and Asians commit so little crime than you can completely ignore them.

    They are not suppose to read minds. You don't need to read minds to see there is zero representation for none white people in republican party. One of the two leading parties not representing 40% of the country is a VERY BIG problem.

    And? You can't justify something so use flaws of the other side. It does nothing to make America look good.

    Its not racist. Republican party is one of the two leading parties in America. They either control everything every 4 years (like right now) or have decent amount of control in other 4 years. But they have zero representation for none-white people, which are now almost 40% of the country.

    And its not just about being white. They are all white AND male. And they represent the entirety of America atm.

    Before Euro German Mark was the most stable currency in human history. Its price never changing beyond negligible amounts. Any economist worth their name would tell you that its the same German stability which is keeping Euro alive and stable and more importantly valuable.

    And the last part was very ironic. One just has to look up and compare the inflation to see how wrong you are. Germany simply has a better system because they recently reviewed and revamped everything. I guess being completely destroyed in literal sense and infrastructure has its advantages. You can rework and revamp everything with modern standards and there will be no one to oppose it because everything is gone. I'm talking about after WW2 of course.

    America still uses outdated systems, same as Britain. No wonder they have very similar economic problems.

    Is this some confirmation you need to feel better about yourself? What does "racism" even mean, as in what do you define as destructive racism? As I said, there is no crime category in which America is doing better, on top of that prisons are even worse as they help nothing and no one and just separate society from criminals, which is the basic reason of their existence. And then there is the police too, which might be the most incompetent, and by comparison, the most racist one in the west as well.

    Quality > quantity.

    Even countries that have wait times, still have lesser hospital lethal rates than America. Because people in need of emergency operations are pushed ahead of schedule. This is to make sure maximum amount of care is given to each patient, and its generally worth the wait. Not to mention that they pay little to nothing for the said operation. You will be the sole focus of operation team when its your turn.

    But countries that have the manpower, such as Germany, have no wait time. Because they have the capacity to provide best quality without the need to wait.

    Did you even consider that money plays little to no role in these countries? You can't even get a surgery in the US if you don't have money, so the wait time is for people who have the money to afford it only.

    Uh, what? Did you purposefully ignored low mortality rate AND high life expectancy? They go hand in hand and the topic was combination of both.

    So people don't die in hospitals and tend to live longer. And of course what you eat and do in your life is important too. Which is another topic of EU having a better education system too. Its not just bad eating habits. You can look at things like teen pregnancy and juvenile crime too. Education is the most important thing that can stop things like these. I'm sure Betsy Devos is doing a very good job atm :cat:

    We can't take your personal examples as a fact. "Best" here means availability of all medical treatments regardless of your income. Some people just tend to live longer. One study recently showed than 0.5% human population might be completely immune to HIV. Some people live longer with cancer and some die very early. These are the arbitrary factors. People are very different in their biology.

    And as far as this topic is concerned, the reputation is enhanced by very low mortality rate in hospitals. Specially with infants.





    There are really good doctors in the EU too. Your insurance in one country covers you in any EU country in which you choose to get treatment in. So if you are in Germany, you can get an insured treatment in Spain. So you have a very wide range of options. So the good doctor argument applies to here to, but on top of that, affordable high quality treatments as well. Which is the missing link in US.

    That's a very simplistic way of looking at. We have private institutions too. But them being private gives them no advantage because the Universal system already provides the highest quality treatments. So them being private and having more money does not give them any sort of advantage except when it comes to plastic surgery and other none medical treatments which mostly focuses on beauty as these are not covered in the Universal system.

    And its not really about costs. A lot of treatments are simply unaffordable by the middle class. Even if they take loans or something.

    Any doctor who falls in that category is almost always international. Meaning they do treatments in different countries. And not all of them are American.

    And its all meaningless if only the rich can afford it. I don't deny what you said here, but its also undeniable that quality of medicine and doctors available to majority of the public is best in the world in the EU. Its not the best in the world, but its available to more people and as statistics clearly show, saves more lives. EU is simply more humanitarian when it comes to healthcare. Or most things really. Even the justice system. The state of public lawyers and courts of America is currently the laughing stock of the world. Where the court session of people who can't afford a good lawyer lasts for 5 minutes or less, in which they are very often announced guilty with no real legal work behind it.

    University education which is only available to people who can afford it you mean. Or actual geniuses who can get scholarships in said Universities.

    Having 99% employment rating after finishing your University education is not arbitrary in any shape or form. Your job is guaranteed if you finish your education. More importantly, its always related to your subject.

    The problem here is Universities like Harvard and Stanford are truly very good and there are more like them. And they get a lot of international students. Lets say US has one such University in each state. That's 50 top notch Universities. But these would barely have enough space for 1% of students.

    So just like everything else, including healthcare and Justice, United states has the best education system reserved for the rich and fortunate only. European Universities are all very equal in their quality and all of them provide the same services with some being a little bit better, but also harder to get into. But not more expensive, which is the point.

    Again, exactly like healthcare, EU has more opportunities for people to get a great education experience, not just those who can afford. And its undeniable that the American community colleges are completely inferior and worse when compared to their equivalent in EU. Higher education in EU that is available to majority of public is undeniably better than US.

    You just have to accept that everything in the US is monopolized and made to serve the rich and successful. Everything is better for people at the top, merely the 5%-10%. Its the best in the world in fact. But for rest of society, things are completely different. I'm not even saying anything about this. Maybe your people like it that way. But don't come here and claim otherwise. European middle class is currently the most successful and happiest in the world, and by contrast you could say our rich are the opposite. But culture and upbringing defines them too. Someone enriched in European culture would not stand living in the rich parts while there are ghettos and trash in other parts of the city. Which is why they gladly pay more taxes to keep the entirety of the city in good decor and clean. So because of this, even our cities follow this pattern. New York's "rich parts" are clearly better than Amsterdam's rich parts. But Amsterdam as a whole is more beautiful because there are no ignored neighborhoods or badly decorated exteriors.

    That's because European rural living has been in great decline until recently where people are going back. You can't have large houses in middle if a large city. You have apartments. Apartment living is much more common in EU than it is in the US. But we can compare the most expensive city of each nation to each other. Which is Munich in Germany and New York in America.

    https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=Germany&country2=United+States&city1=Munich&city2=New+York,+NY

    Average square per foot is the same when it comes to Apartments, which is where majority of Europeans live in. Living in houses in somewhat an American thing. You have more space, but it needs ten times more effort to keep it in good shape and its much less secure.

    So I'm guessing an American dishwasher can afford to buy living space and a car, start a family and go on a yearly vacation abroad? :cat:

    A German one can. A dishwasher in America would get minimum wage, which is barely enough to live alone and not die.

    Lolwut?

    I mean you haven't been in Europe ever, so I will let you imagine things. There are very old remnants of squat toliets in eastern Europe, mostly the Balkans where Ottomans held for a very long time. Squat toilets are quite rare. They have to exist for more than 100 years since a new one has not been built ever since.

    But lets take a look at San Francisco poop problem, where the city is simply covered in human feces.

    https://www.theguardian.com/comment...rancisco-poop-problem-inequality-homelessness

    https://www.citylab.com/equity/2018/08/san-franciscos-sidewalk-poop-problem/566621/

    You were saying? :cat:

    Yes and no. Its completely harmless and part of the culture. We can't change our culture because it hurts the feelings of foreigners.

    They are the ones who should change.

    When in Rome...

    But its not called racism here. So you can't use your standards to judge a foreign nation. You would be subject of a much harsher judgement if I used European standards on America.

    Again, wrong standards.

    Says the American. America is notoriously famous for calling itself greatest nation on earth. And it kinda was for a while. But there has been a great decline since 1990.

    We don't call it racism, we call it nationalism. No one should be bothered with annoyances and hurt feelings of others so long as no real damage is done. You know, damage like high crime rate? Specially targeted crime.

    This literally made no sense. Because there are Polish players who get the same treatment too.

    Polish ethnicity: White with high probability of blonde and light hair.

    Hmm. Really makes you think they are racist!

    Foreigner kinda means incompatible culture though? Its just that our problems with these cultures usually does not end in violence unlike America. And you have the audacity to call it "more racist".

    Polish and Romanians. Enough said.

    European standard of racism: Using race and skin color as sole reason for malicious action.

    Compares Europe to America with European standard of racism.

    Nope. You are more racist.

    This sentence shows everything wrong with all you said.

    A political party not representing anyone but themselves while having 50% or more power in every election cycle is a big problem. If you don't see this as a problem, then you are part of the problem. American government is flawed on fundamental level and it does not end there. The two party system needs to go to begin with, but even then, its a much worse version of two party system. So not only its flawed on fundamental levels, its also flawed in execution.

    Some racist do grow up among black people. But its less likely. But you are simply agreeing with me that most Europeans don't see black people their entire lives. But they don't end up going on shooting sprees. So I can't see anyone with an average intelligence coming to conclusion that Europe is more racist in a destructive way. I didn't know you were a fan of SJW definition of racism where everything is branded racist.