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So, where is Phoenix?

Discussion in 'Meta-Game Discussion' started by Ediros, Nov 12, 2016.

  1. Ediros

    Ediros Member

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    Well, as the title says. Phoenix used to appear on pro games, but after he got nerfed a bit, I have not seen him picked too often.

    So, quick question, does he need something? Or maybe pros need to discover this hero?
     
  2. SirPinkyNose

    SirPinkyNose Member

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    Nyx shuts him down completely and since he's popular now people are picking other heroes.
     
    Jakrasia likes this.
  3. Freaky Alien Genotype

    Freaky Alien Genotype Moderator Staff Member

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    Along with probably every hero who gets nerfed, he needs time for the meta to shift back in favour of his playstyle, or for other comparable supports to be nerfed harder than he was to make him a better option.
     
  4. Kris

    Kris Moderator Staff Member

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    To say pros need to "discover" the hero, suggests you don't know about September

    Wisp and Phx have rather different styles than most conventional heroes
    Earth Spirit has a different set of mechanics

    There are probably some other examples, but basically you have to want to get good at these heroes and play them like 40+ games for the thought processes to become second nature. (which is required to play at a high level)

    Earth Spirit, Jug, Naix, Invoker, Ogre are all toxic to Phx for different reasons. Nobody really wants to sign up for their egg dying every fight.
     
  5. Trew

    Trew Member

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    Agree with all of the above.
    Genreally people also got better at canceling sun ray in fights.
    On top of that it was the "Strength" meta so heroes with % dmg spells such as DP, Phoenix, Doom, Timbersaw etc were popular.
     
  6. dimwit105

    dimwit105 Member

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    What do you mean? I'm right here!

    Just to expand a little on what people said here, A big part of the hero is just staying alive in a teamfight. Fire spirits destroys anyone's right clicks, in combination with infused raindrops, this makes it hard to damage people. But with echo sabre being a thing, along with pure damage and whatnot, it doesn't always work out that way.

    Phoenix's ult isn't just a drop and forget either, like void or tidehunter. Her team needs to actively defend her, she can do a little on her own but, there's only so much she can do. I'd like to think the rewards for doing so are pretty good, but I'm not so sure anymore (more nova hits please IceFrog).
     
  7. Kris

    Kris Moderator Staff Member

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    The other problem Phx has is she has no real laning impact. She takes advantage of weak offlaners or sapping an empty lane with her carry. If she's drafted too early the other team can exploit this. If she's drafted too late she needs to slot into an almost perfect lineup to justify the pick, given my previous comment about meta heroes being toxic to her, that's kind of unlikely.
     
    dimwit105 likes this.
  8. Clear

    Clear Member

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    Pros don't need to discover the hero, they already have. It just didn't work lately. That's all.
     
    Necalli likes this.
  9. dimwit105

    dimwit105 Member

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    Does that mean we will get phoenix buffs? Someone would appreciate it
     
  10. Clear

    Clear Member

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    Probably minor buffs. I don't think phoenix will be buffed to relevance
     
  11. dimwit105

    dimwit105 Member

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    All I need to for people to stop buying echo sabres and dragon lances, that would be cool. An Echo sabre nerf would be just as good honestly, have echo only work on non-wards, and it will be a much less hostile environment for phoenixes everywhere.
     
  12. Ediros

    Ediros Member

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    Bump, 7.01 nerfed the sunbeam to the ground. Not only is it magical damage, the new blademail makes it completely worthless.

    And the talents the hero gets are just weak, compared to some of the heroes.
     
  13. Daddy Sven

    Daddy Sven Moderator Staff Member

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    If the enemy doesn't have any magic res gear, the damage is the same though. Veil + Spell Amp talent kind of make up for the change to an extend.
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2017
  14. dimwit105

    dimwit105 Member

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    I disagree, spell amp already amped beam damage, but the change to magical makes phoenix more item dependent, and overall weaker. I used to skip veil because I had pure damage which can really change a fight. Now, I feel like I need veil just to be relevant. Sunray has been destroyed, I never maxed it first like the pros did, but now I feel even less inclined to pick it up. If it didn't heal, it wouldn't be worth the skill points over dive.
     
  15. Dark Mizuki

    Dark Mizuki Member

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    Haven't played Phoenix since 70, but with Icarus having Sun Ray as magical, it's entirely different now (as pointed by a fellow Phoenix lover). Now I won't feel that my Sun Ray would melt down my foes anymore, now that they could counter it with Pipe. And getting Veil should be more important now since all of her damage is magical, and this leaves me less adaptability for builds.

    Now I feel like buffing Dive, just because they wanted to nerf Sun Beam and Supernova.
     
  16. stereox

    stereox Member

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    Allow egg to be ethereal'd
     
  17. Oesile

    Oesile Member

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    That would make Phoenix + Pugna broken actually. Phoenix as a hero is fine, in fact, if Phoenix were to be a strong pick in this meta then he'd have to be heavily nerfed, with all of his counters being picked and all.
    Just let the meta develop and we'll see phases of Phoenix picks, just like how in 6.88 the meta shifted constantly.
     
  18. Necalli

    Necalli Member

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    Sunray indeed was destroyed but you know most of his/her/wtf is that popularity came from Sun Ray fitting perfectly.
     
  19. Oesile

    Oesile Member

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    5% Pure to 6.75% magical is essentially the same damage, except magic immunity is a bitch now.
    And unlike before, you can Amp it, and Veil is currently an awesome item in general.
    I'd say the change is almost a buff, just like with DP when her Siphon got changed from pure to magical (which was a nerf for DP because she doesn't benefit as much from veil due to exorcism).
    And your laser depushes so much better than before, because lane creeps don't get magic resistance anyway.

    You don't need the extra items up until the point the opponents get a BKB, and as Phoenix you're one of the magic damage dealing heroes least affected by raindrops. And it's not like you didn't want Veil before, it's such a cost effective item it's almost a crime not to get it. Tranqs, Urn, raindrops, some clarities and Veil is a very solid build with great progression. And it powers up your team as well.
    And it makes you farm your Shiva's pretty effectively. You do 350 magic damage with your spirits on a veiled creep, meaning you can just drive thru farm creepwaves.
     
  20. Leadblast

    Leadblast Member

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    The last time he was viable was when Dive caused disarm, Spirits healed and Sun Ray did pure damage along with giving him flying unit status. It's been a while since then.