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So should people put their credentials (MMR, hero winrates) in the guide post?

Discussion in 'Guides' started by kaybo999, Oct 9, 2016.

  1. StrychIX

    StrychIX Member

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    I strongly encourage any guide-writers out there to include their source(s) of inspiration. Context is super-important to understanding why something works or doesn't work in Dota. I don't think anyone loses out by the writer providing the environment from within their ideas originated such as their MMR, ranked vs. unranked, how much they've played this hero, etc.

    This isn't to say every guide has to come from a high-rated player or subscribe to conventional logic. Like, let's say I have a super-high win rate over a significant number of games with something super questionable like Deso-Bfury BH against 2-3k range players in unranked. Someone playing in 4 or 5k Ranked or whatever can safely ignore my post but maybe some casual player who really likes BH might want to read it to see what play style techniques is enabling me to win with those dumb items... I don't see how anyone loses out by my being upfront about where I'm coming from with my BH guide.

    Of course that's just a dumb example to demonstrate my point which is that one's "creds" are important. I don't think anyone thinks that only players of certain MMRs have experiences worth sharing, but it's nice to know if a guide-writer has a ton of time on their hero or if they just won a few games with whatever items and are popping into to say, "Hey guys, Blinken's Sphere WR is amazing!" or what-have-you.
     
    Jakrasia likes this.
  2. Oesile

    Oesile Member

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    Well, it's helpful to filter for which guide you need. A higher MMR guide for Venomancer may fail to address that often you're the solo support, or that no one else in the game will purchase a single sentry or dust, and recommend getting, say, a blink dagger.

    Which will be useless as you'll need detection much more because every hero on dire will be getting a shadow blade.

    However, I think that most 3k guides will be ashamed of posting their mmr's, as people tend to be very dismissive of say, null talisman first Disruptor, when it comes from a 3k player.
    For me a 3k guide is fine, so only a 2k or 1k guide won't be of too much use (on average), so having people post their credentials in terms of bracket means I get less guides to read.
     
    Jakrasia likes this.
  3. Jakrasia

    Jakrasia Member

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    You would rather be able to write a guide on a hero or playstyle without making any mention of the level you play at? Sorry but you have no bussiness writing guides without the pretext that it is based in the bracket you played games in. You can make useful guides for people in the 2k bracket just like I might be able to make useful guides for people in the 4k bracket, but let's leave guides that apply to the level of Dota this game is balanced around to the people that play at or around that level.

    This reddit issue you mentioned can be fixed and or prevented with proper moderation, something which doesn't happen on the dota subreddit. Ones argument shouldn't be discounted for being 2k, but it should be put into the context of the 2k bracket.
     
  4. TheGraveOne

    TheGraveOne Member

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    What about people that don't play ranked? What about highly regarded old-school players like clan-iraq( who refuses to reveal his mmr) with his unconventional builds? What about high mmr players like Dragonfist that say shit like "mute everyone on your team"- which is something that can only work if your playing a patch where being a core-hero spammer works?

    I for one think people should be able to use their brains to read a guide and judge it by its own merits and arguments.Good example -Overpowerade's Terrorblade guide on this forum is a clear example of blatant retarded trolling. I don't need 5k mmr to be able to recognise that.
     
    FreeLanceFoX likes this.
  5. Wonkdonkler

    Wonkdonkler Moderator Staff Member

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    There is a difference between blatant trolling and innocent misunderstanding / misinformation.
    I don't thing it should be a rule, but there should be a trend of people posting their MMR. There will be good/bad exceptions, but it's easier to weed it out that way.
     
  6. Oesile

    Oesile Member

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    There is one case where the MMR of the poster of a guide is meaningless, and that's when a guide is like a systematic review. In a systematic review you don't do the experiments yourself, but instead review the results and gameplay of others, like CLQ does with BananaSlamJamma (bad example, but the first name that springed to mind).

    As shown in Purge's weatherman section, it's not unimaginable for a lower skilled player to understand the thought process of better players. Systematic reviews are useful because someone can also combine the results of different hero spammers and add in statistics to support his claim for example.
     
  7. Jakrasia

    Jakrasia Member

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    Are you fering to Purge or the viewers? Purge is 5k with a broad hero pool, the viewers of those segments will get a glimpse into those thought processes but they will not come to understand them simply through watching.
     
  8. Oesile

    Oesile Member

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    I'm referring to Purge and how he can follow the thought process of players that have 3k mmr more than himself.
    I'm referring to how a player doesn't have to play himself, but can look at the replays of, say, a hero spammer, and explain to others in a guide what he does to be successful early on. What works out for him and what doesn't.
    Let's say a Lich spammer with 3000 games as lich skills frost armor at level 4 in most scenarios. The person making the guide about this can watch replays of games in which the Lich did not do so and try to figure out why.

    Once he does he can tell us "If the opponent can pressure your tower early xXLichSpamerXx puts a skillpoint into frost armor, considerably slowing their push", for example.
    This is nice to know as a Lich player and can help you win games.
    Watching replays of pro players has always been considered a good way to learn how to play Dota. Reading the dissections of multiple replays may prove even more useful, and MMR range of the person making the guide is not as important as he's not the one playing and testing the build.

    (Disclaimer, there is no such Lich player, I don't know whether it's worth it to skill frost armor at 4 or not, it's just an example)

    Edit: However it must be mentioned who the player is you watched replays of, and also it should be mentioned what MMR range that player is at.
     
    Wonkdonkler and Jakrasia like this.
  9. Jakrasia

    Jakrasia Member

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    agreed.
     
  10. Beast_Pete

    Beast_Pete Forum Manager Staff Member

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    Posting your MMR, win rate or average K/D/A is not important. Whoever wishes to do so, do so. It's a dynamic information aynway, and as some have pointed it out in this thread, you can easily and quickly find out whether someone is on a good level as a player and as a teacher/lecturer.

    We did not have MMR back 10 years ago, we could still figure out who has a working strategy and build or not.
     
  11. Jakrasia

    Jakrasia Member

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    Nobody is arguing for average k/d/a, win-rate is not really relevant, but the level at which the games are played most certainly are. Pretending it's not relevant is nothing short of disingenuous. I get the want to go back to 'the good old days' and not utilise silly things such as an ELO based rating system, but these days we DO have that information available to us, and it 'working' in the past doesn't stop things from working better in the present or future.

    The way games play out is vastly different based on the bracket the game is played in. Having this rule yields nothing but more precise guides, which are honest and provide info that is actually relevant. The person for whom it's a bad thing is one with irrelevant or poorly founded opinions whom masquerades as something more.

    The only valid concern is that opinions which are not dependant on skill bracket will be judged based on MMR, which is something good moderating can fix. Lets not allow the rotten and irrelevant apples, those who would engage arguments of that kind, to ruin the bunch.
     
    judhapanggabea7 likes this.
  12. thisgamelull

    thisgamelull Member

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    Are you seriously comparing yourselves to Purge? A player who has played in a competitive environment, whether it is in a Valve tournaments or his 5k+ MMR pub games, while also making a genuine effort to understand this game. Stop pretending your opinions matter.

    Look at what happened to Aui_2000. He tried to reach out to the community with informative content via Youtube. What happened? It was barely recognised. This was prior to TI5, when he was feeling optimistic. He won TI5 and was kicked. What has he contributed since then? Pretty much nothing. It will be the same with most 'pro' players wishing to share knowledge.When the going gets tough, the information stops flowing.
    I will conclude this by asking - Have you ever seen a thread/video in the last 4/5 years with 2 elite players going tit for tat about their theories of Dota?

    Until we get a worthwhile platform (such as a forum) with enough intelligent, 'high MMR' players willing to share their wisdom; without fear of scrutiny from the ignorant masses (yes, I wholeheartedly believe 2k MMR players should not have an option to reply to these threads) - we will be in the same meme mentality for years to come. Herds of sheep posting twitch/youtube clips titled '?' or 'RTZ uses mouse'. Dota will slowly die out as you hear the faint screams of 'IDI NAHUI MID OR FEED' after mid is instalocked. The unfortunate player who picks 5th will be required to play position 32.2 support with compulsory blowjobs for allies and enemies. By this time, low priority will be permanent for anyone foolish enough to press random, pick a non-meta hero or type in chat for any reason.

    PDR has been active for roughly 2 weeks. People have literally waited years for the revival. Is there a single thread that took over an hour to make?
    Seriously, get a grip boys. You are not relevant (staff or otherwise) when it comes to honest Dota discussion.
     
    Jakrasia likes this.
  13. Jakrasia

    Jakrasia Member

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    Exhibit A:

    Imagine a fully written out version of this guide. People are well-capable of dressing up stuff to look fancy and legitimate, and those browsing would simply eat it up. This is a 3k player boasting about his TB winrate, legitimately thinking his manner of play is legitimate outside of his skill level: http://www.dotabuff.com/players/107244606.

    Yes, a player who is skilled or knoweldgeable enough to know this is awful will be able to tell, but the people at which the guide is aimed might not be, they might assume this player plays at a high level.
     
    Wonkdonkler likes this.
  14. Lanaya.de

    Lanaya.de Member

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    By the time it falls off, games aren't trenchy enough for babysit-reliant carries be useless.

    On top of that, the guide is specifically aimed at lower MMR players. Any retard with a keyboard and 5K MMR could rant over and over about proper team draft and strategy, while not managing to cover the basics and overlooking the fact that the only hero a player can play is their own.

    It's like how really good players sometimes overestimate how bad players can be when writing a guide.

    Besides, I wrote the guide so I could remember how to get from 2K to 3K MMR when I am 4K, so that I could write a 2K > 4K guide.

    tl;dr anyone below 7K MMR is trash
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2016
  15. Jakrasia

    Jakrasia Member

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    Any such guide should be tagged with sources. The sources in this case being the level the games were played in. This would allow the guide to be put into context and would allow for full transparency. The guide would still function as a niche idea that works at least up until a certain level, but people would be able to judge that for themselves. Not every guide catering to players under 4k needs to be catered to new players, I know plenty of people below that level that are far from new at the game.
     
  16. Lanaya.de

    Lanaya.de Member

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    I specifically tagged that particular TB guide as a 2K > 3K guide.
     
  17. Jakrasia

    Jakrasia Member

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    Not in the the same post. Either way it's argument in favour for the proposed changes.
     
  18. Lanaya.de

    Lanaya.de Member

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    I do have a fully fleshed-out detailed guide detailing every single bit of TB things.

    It is basically an extension of the build I posted.
     
  19. Jakrasia

    Jakrasia Member

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    Ah, found it. Ye, that guide is a good example of a guide properly being put in context.
     
  20. archaichearts

    archaichearts New Member

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    this should be applied to posts in general

    really tired of 2k idiots posting their opinions in the forums as fact when it comes to game balance
     
    Jakrasia likes this.