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Shrines need to be removed from the game

Discussion in 'Dota Chat' started by ItsJustANumber, Sep 14, 2017.

  1. ManOnTheCan

    ManOnTheCan Member

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    If the skill floor drops, then less skilled players will benefit.

    Consider if everyone got +120gpm. Players with poor farming patterns and bad csing could have their gpm doubled, while players who can farm well would only have a marginal improvement.
     
  2. ItsJustANumber

    ItsJustANumber Member

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    "So whoever wins the lane can still contribute more overall to the good of his team in comparison to someone who lost it." This is obvious in the current meta (and has been since the inception of dota). Not sure why you're bringing it up.

    About MMR distribution. Tbh, I don't know exactly how the system works (not sure anyone here does) and I don't know anything about statistics so I'm not gonna reply to you about it. Ignore my previous post about MMR.
    Lets use your rotating support example. If I understood you correctly the scenario plays out as follows
    1. (for example) Dire mid beats radiant mid
    2. Radiant mid is forced to use the shrine early to stay in lane. This means that when radiant support rotates, he won't have a shrine to use afterwards, while after the dire support rotates he will have a shrine to use.

    My problem with shrines is it's free. When the dire support rotates - wether or not he gets the kill he still shrines up.
    Your point is the reason the dire support got to shrine up (regardless of getting the kill) compared to the radiant one is because the dire mid beat radiant mid. So winning your lane is still very relevant even with shrines. My point is the support shouldn't be getting freebies in the first place regardless of lane outcome. There are better ways to reward good play. If the dire support decides to try and gank mid, there should be risks involved if he fails (obviously he can still get counter-ganked but that's regardless of the heal effect shrine has). Not "oh well, sure I lost some time but I'm still going to get my free heal".
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2017
  3. kamukag3e

    kamukag3e Member

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    @ItsJustANumber:
    Right now, rotations are quite common. The higher you go the more you will see them.
    Yet, even with them, still they are not as impactful as players think, still wasting your support's time and usually lower his XP gain - even after a successful kill. Being unable to make a kill or even worst - die in the process, because reactionary teleport are a thing - he (the support) will be even further behind.

    A trip to the middle lane usually takes around 40 seconds up to a minute. Then you have to wait to the proper opening which usually still take some time 10-20 seconds. After that the support can make a kill, run away low on hp, mana or both or die.
    Which will cost him another 2 minutes if he needs to go to the base and replenish there. So 3 minutes wasted for a single kill or at worst - loss of gold on top of it.

    Now, the impact of the shrine is that it could to some extend fix all the stuff if the supports survive that and save them a trip to the base. Now you save 2 minutes, that's like 66% of the time previously needed to invest for a support.

    If your ally loses the lane, he deprives you of that benefit and screw the supports big time.


    Now, if they do not invest it and say 'screw the guy, he lost the lane anyway', middle even with the sustain from the shrine is still behind in experience and gold and will continue to lose against the enemy he faces until the things change.
    Guess what - the enemy middle can receive help and increase his lead from his support and not actually waste a lot of their time doing so - because he wasn't forced to use the shrine. Now he can have even bigger advantage if his supports rotate !

    So as you can see from this theoretical case - Shrine is free heal for both teams, but the impact it could do is non-existent, because it could be used by both parties.
    It just adds another dimension to the tactical sphere of the game.
     
    flamegod0 likes this.
  4. Infrisios

    Infrisios Moderator Staff Member

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    That is where you are wrong. Shrines are not free. And no, the support won't necessarily shrine up. Everything in dota is a resource. Shrines, gold, XP, neutral camps, space on the map.
    Just using it doesn't give you an advantage. Using it better than the enemy is what gives you the advantage.

    If an enemy uses a shrine badly, it is comparable to getting the wrong item. Using a shrine badly can be just as bad as getting an unfitting item, spending a skillpoint for a skill you won't need, placing a ward in a spot where it doesn't do much.

    This is why shrines don't make the game easier. They add another component to the complexity. Even though it is not overly critical if you misuse a shrine a bit, especially compared to bad massive gold investments, it still has some impact.

    The main effect of shrines is that they accelerate the game and give more options. A roaming squad of 3-4 heroes can shrine up and keep roaming instead of falling back to passive plays or going back to base. That is a great aspect as it gives a lot of pace to the game, increases relevance of vision and incentivizes aggressive, even dangerous playstyles.
     
  5. adapt

    adapt Member

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    I used to dislike shrines except now I enjoy them because battles at the shrine areas are actually really enjoyable.

    I do agree though that when shrines are used by an enemy offlaner that you just spent all your mana harassing out of lane are pure cancer.
     
  6. ItsJustANumber

    ItsJustANumber Member

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    Sure, but higher mmr carry players would also have their farming items timing decreased, which would lead to higher gpm and xpm, which would lead to being fight ready faster, which would lead to this and that and that...
    I think if we want to talk mmr we need lots of empirical data.

    Lets say there was an item that you could buy that would give the equivalent AOE healing of a shrine. After using the item (which should cost a lot), the buyer gets bonus Aoe kill gold from previous kills or future ones.
    This the difference between free and not free. If either the roaming squad of 3-4, or the rotating support to mid that preemptively buys the new item and sends it on courier, take the risk and buy the item, and then they fail to get a kill;
    They invested in an expensive item that had an awful return on investment. Instead they should have just went back to base to heal. If they do get a kill, the item pays back for itself and then some.
    With shrines there is no risk. It's free. Even smokes cost gold.

    Maybe if shrines cost gold to activate I would have never made this thread.
     
  7. kamukag3e

    kamukag3e Member

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    @ItsJustANumber:
    But shrines do cost resource, it's not gold but "time" instead.
    5 minute recharge time is rather long, so it's not available for quite a while after usage.

    As @Infrisios already said, it add depth and does not disbalance the game, because it's available to both sides.
    You said that scan for example requires skill - it doesn't. I know where to put wards, they cost money, time to move my hero and plant them, risk etc.
    Scan on the other hand is free of charge and effort 5 second enemy hero detection 'for free'.
    It's only drawback is that once used need a long time to recharge - but you still consider it balanced, how so ?
     
  8. flamegod0

    flamegod0 Member

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    and glyph. and also fountain is actually free if you don't consider the travel time. also, towers are free meatshield that helps to hit the enemy/creeps. I would agree that all of these are not making the game easier though. They just add layers of complexity to DotA.
    Now that people mention it, we took lots of DotA mechanic for granted. That a lot of factors are actually free and sometimes we just let them die by not buying TP scrolls etc. :(
     
  9. ItsJustANumber

    ItsJustANumber Member

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    The fact that it has a 5 minute cooldown doesn't mean it costs anything to use it. Like scan, it's free.
    Secondly, scan and glyph and free gpm are actually not that powerful. Glyph doesn't stop a 5 man push, you can only buy the cheapest items with free gpm and hitting or missing a scan doesn't guarantee anything.
    Shrines in the early game are like a free salve and 3 mangoes (and if you're hitting 5 heroes that's already 1050 gold) and many more salves and mangoes as the game goes on.
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2017
  10. Infrisios

    Infrisios Moderator Staff Member

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    No, it is one of the possible definitions. For you, apparently anything not worth gold is free. For me, everything that uses a resource is not free.

    Your argument did not debunk, counter or even adress my point, you simply argued that you have a different view of what "free" means.
     
  11. kamukag3e

    kamukag3e Member

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    @ItsJustANumber:
    Won't argue about something being free, @Infrisios already pointed out the flaw in your logic.

    Wouldn't argue much about that, but if they were not powerful, they would not be with 3.5 and 5 minutes cooldown respectively.

    Also, detection where there might be enemy heroes might not be important to you, but for me is of extreme importance, it opens so much options to my play.
    Scan gives you information, and information is one of the most important things, if you can't use it that doesn't mean others can't take advantage of it.

    Glyph can buy you few seconds, but sometimes this is all you need to win a game. And most commonly than that 5 seconds is what you need to make unfavorable exchange slightly better for you.
    Not to mention Glyph is the only reason you don't see constant back-door strategies, because the Glyph added to the back-door makes even those heroes which can chew through it choke on their attempt.

    First - it still gives you the knowledge that no enemy hero is there.
    Second - activating a Shrine and dying before the effect kicks-in 'doesn't guarantee anything'.

    Misuse is not an evidence that something is not actually good.

    A Dream Coil usage in the right time can give you first place in prestigious tournament and a lot of money, I think that is outrageous and should be removed from the game.

    Also it is true, or you could say it gives you the benefit of +495 health or equivalent of +25 strength or two and a quarter ultimate orbs of value which is 4837 gold during a fight.

    P.S.:
    Your logic in that matter is bad, and you should feel bad.
    P.S.S.:
    No matter how much you complain, shrines won't be removed. So ether make really nice thread with good arguments and logic or start understanding how to use it to your advantage instead of seeing it as an obstacle.
     
    Infrisios likes this.
  12. ItsJustANumber

    ItsJustANumber Member

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    So if everyone got a "free" salve every minute it wouldn't actually be "free" because when you use the salve you're using a resource?

    Everything you said is true (except the P.S. and P.S.S parts). What's your point? That misuse is not evidence that something is not actually good? Ok.
    And?
     
  13. kamukag3e

    kamukag3e Member

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    @ItsJustANumber:
    The P.S. part is supposed to be a joke and futurama reference,
    the P.S.S. part is also true.

    Yes, misuse is not evidence.
    Scan is really valuable asset because it gives information for free, a lot of players does not utilize that feature but it's like a 8 seconds observer and sentry ward 'for free' every 3 and a half minute. It doesn't sound like a lot, but it's more than good.

    Do you know why players actually have success using it - simply because they are bad, the reason why Shrines seems unfair, strong etc. is the same. While being easier to get benefit - bad play is still there.

    Plenty of times someone using shrine selfishly and 10 before a point at which it could heal multiple heroes,
    even more times when I'm stunned and focused in the AoE and a nearby ally did not activate it and miss his chance to turn the flow of the battle.

    On a side topic,
    just recently have a conversation with a friend, he thinks that heroes are not suited for every game and counter-picks are important. Yet in games lower than 3k that's not as important, there is a reason why high rated players say 'everything works in pubs'.

    The thing is that Shrines are there, provide free healing but are a resource which a team must utilize properly to get a lead.
    Items are there as well and while costing gold are not to be taken without context.
    flamegod0 already summarize a lot of things I wanted and actually posted.

    If you continue to accept Shrines as 'free' and 'unnecessary' you are right, because it's your opinion and no one can say a word against that. Yet I'm not obliged to agree with that and that's my opinion. Provided much thoughts about why (IMO) you can agree or don't, but a lot of people here as you can see share my opinion.
    So you should consider 'are you 'next level' tinker or just hitting your head against the wall instead of just walking though the door'.
     
  14. ItsJustANumber

    ItsJustANumber Member

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    Okay maybe the P.S.S is true. :cat:
    "If you continue to accept Shrines as 'free' and 'unnecessary'"
    Never said that. My argument is a simple one. With shrines in the game in their current state bad play is punished less than without them.
     
  15. kamukag3e

    kamukag3e Member

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    @ItsJustANumber:
    No, bad play is punished the same. It's just harder to play better with shrines around, because you have additional thing (call it resource, depth or w/e) which is the Shrine.

    So now players which can outperform their adversaries have to include the Shrine in it.



    As an example of how adaptation work.
    Player A can outperform player B - post Shrines.

    Player A can outperform player B - after Shrine introduction in the early part.
    Then player B refill and win over player A

    What player A is missing is that the enemy have Shrine - but so does he.

    What should happen if player A adapts to the new changes is this:
    He wins over player B, after the enemy refills, he aggro a bit and refill himself on his own shrine - thus maintaining the lead.

    That's for mid-lane, the other have different dynamic, but I never even once saw how a single hero on the hard lane can win against the safe-lane because of the shrine. It can help him or his team once to refill, but doing so he forfeit some experience if he was able to stay in the lane.
    #3 position is all about the experience you can gather.

    With some heroes as #3 I don't need shrines, neutrals, bounty on the hard lane and pretty much free them for the roamer, yet still manage to salvage everything I was supposed to.
    Not to mention when in low average rated games I even tend to shut down dual and three-lanes single-handedly without the usage of the shrines. Or as a support shut down the hard-lane enemy despite his ability to use shrine, while ours is far away.

    It does not magically helps you to do stuff, it's how you use it - and if it require proper usage to fulfill it's role - is not actually promoting bad play is it ?
     
    flamegod0 likes this.
  16. flamegod0

    flamegod0 Member

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    I think, trying to dive a not-on-CD shrine without proper burst is considered as a bad play. And people who do love to do those overextending movement are punished. And they will be punished less without shrine.
    Maybe removing shrine is not the right solution for your problem. Nerfing the shrine and evaluating your definition of bad play with each patch might work though.

    I guess that sums up my argument and most of the people here.

    even tl;dr ver: icefrog wanted to make the game more active while adding gameplay depth instead of farmfiesta/deathball 5v5 from 10 min.

    (just wait next year. maybe the meta evolve into something new entirely.)
     
  17. Infrisios

    Infrisios Moderator Staff Member

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    Having the Salve is free. Using it isn't, because you are paying for the heal using your Salve. You won't have the Salve after using it. If you use it badly, you are at a disadvantage.

    Same goes for Shrines. The shrine standing there and just chilling is free. Its heal isn't because you pay with the cooldown.

    As I have stated time and again, gold isn't the only resource in dota.
     
  18. ItsJustANumber

    ItsJustANumber Member

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    It doesn't promote bad play. It reduces punishment for bad play.
    Giving something for free to both teams could mean a lot of things. In the case of shrines and why they are bad let me give you an extreme example:
    Imagine if shrines were on one minute cooldown and they always healed you to full. Just the aspect of harassing in mid lane would become irrelevant. Get harassed because of your bad positioning? Wait a minute and shrine up.
    Back to the regular shrines - why is it bad that there is a free heal in the map? Not because it promotes bad play, but again it reduces punishment for bad play.

    Another extreme example: In the mid game radiant Oracle is low on health. He uses the shrine alone to heal himself. Meanwhile the dire just used the shrine for the entire team. With all this extra health they got compared to the other team because of their efficient shrine usage they then go on to win a team fight and take a tower.

    Nice. Now lets use the same example except when dire go to team fight , they neither win nor lose the fight (of course this time they don't get a tower). So - dire was extremely efficient with their shrine usage, radiant extremely inefficient. Dire still didn't win the teamfight. Did the dire actually lose anything from this failed team fight attempt, from that bad decision to shrine up and fight? Other than time wasted, no.
    Now imagine if using shrines costed gold. Yes, this time their punishment for making a bad decision was much more severe.

    "icefrog wanted to make the game more active while adding gameplay depth instead of farmfiesta/deathball 5v5 from 10 min"
    Great! Don't make the game easier/not as punishing when you do it though. As for evaluating my definition for bad play, the reason I fell in love with dota is how strict it was at punishing you for bad plays, while at the same time having an extremely high skill cap among other things. If I didn't want to be punished for my mistakes (or use others mistakes as an opportunity) I would be playing a casual game.

    "I think, trying to dive a not-on-CD shrine without proper burst is considered as a bad play. "
    Also why do you and @kamukag3e like to use extremely obvious examples. Of course that's a bad play.
     
  19. ItsJustANumber

    ItsJustANumber Member

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    Yeah, you're right about the resources.

    I think in its current state using the shrine at the cost of putting it on cooldown in return for what it gives you makes it too forgiving. Shrines really can enable a gank sqaud in the mid game, which is good because it opens up new play opportunities and increases the skill cap. But if you use the shrine in the most effective and still get nothing meaningful out it it should cost more than just putting it on cooldown.
    I guess in that train of thought maybe also smoke should cost more resources.
     
  20. Infrisios

    Infrisios Moderator Staff Member

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    You can often just use shrines for yourself and often won't be at a noteworthy disadvantage, that's true. But if you are in an effective roaming team of 2-3 heroes you can also use it really well, and I wouldn't want to see it gone.