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PRD & Cooldown

Discussion in 'Advanced Mechanics' started by Blamagenkind, Nov 4, 2016.

  1. Blamagenkind

    Blamagenkind Member

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    Do PRD chances increase while abilities(e.g.:Counter Helix) are in cooldown?
     
  2. EebstertheGreat

    EebstertheGreat Forum Manager Staff Member

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    In DotA 1 they do not for triggered PRD, but they sort of do for hardcoded Orb of Slow, albeit with a lot of caveats (e.g. if you issue any new order, like move, stop, or attack something else, PRD is reset). I'll leave the thread open for Dota 2. I believe that they do not.
     
  3. HHHNNNGGG

    HHHNNNGGG Member

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    Wait that's new for me. So when the ability is on cooldown, if I issue another order, the PRD is reset. Weird.
     
  4. EebstertheGreat

    EebstertheGreat Forum Manager Staff Member

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    In the specific case of an ability based on Orb of Slow (or Orb of Lightning) with both a cooldown and a probability strictly between 0 and 1, yes. In DotA, this only applies to Spirit Bear's Entangle. When it procs (like any PRD ability), the counter resets to zero. Then if you attack while it is on cooldown, the PRD counter will increase with each attack that fails to proc, just like any PRD ability. But if it procs while on cooldown, it behaves differently: as long as you issue no new orders, the next attack after cooldown ends will be a guaranteed entangle. But if it procs while on cooldown and then you issue a new order, the counter will just reset to 0 and the next hit will not be a guaranteed entangle.
     
  5. Blamagenkind

    Blamagenkind Member

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    Thanks, I'm still waiting for some dota 2 info.
     
  6. matrice

    matrice Member

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    I achieved to make 9 hits with lone druid's bear after the cooldown came back without proccing.
    (0.24s / attack -6moonshard-) so the bear more or less made 20 attack during the cooldown.

    As far as i remember, the threshold for auto root is lower than 29 attack without any proc, so mostlikely the counter doesn't increase while in cooldown.
     
    Blamagenkind likes this.
  7. EebstertheGreat

    EebstertheGreat Forum Manager Staff Member

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    Nₘₐₓ for a 20% PRD in Dota 2 is 18, so if your memory is correct then you are probably right, which is what I would expect anyway, since Dota 2 is unlikely to have the same bug as DotA 1 (but then again, it uses the same inaccurate lookup table, apparently on purpose).
     
  8. Cáno

    Cáno Member

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    How do we know that?
     
  9. EebstertheGreat

    EebstertheGreat Forum Manager Staff Member

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    I can't remember what changelog stated as much, but Valve previously used more accurate figures and changed them to match WC3's. I don't know that it's exactly the same table but it is clearly extremely close. The Dota 2 Wiki reports it as if it is exactly the same.
     
  10. mapdesigner

    mapdesigner Member

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  11. EebstertheGreat

    EebstertheGreat Forum Manager Staff Member

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    An example of this is in the recent change of Poor Man's Shield block chance against non-hero units from 53% to 50%. Previously, it was reported as 60% even though it was in fact closer to 53%. Then it was reported as 53%, even though that was still not exact (but reasonably close). Now it is exactly 50%.

    So not all values are wrong, just some of them.
     
  12. mapdesigner

    mapdesigner Member

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    How would we even test if it is increasing on CD? That test only shows that either:
    1. It can increase and reset during CD
    2. it does not increase during CD, meaning it will start increase from the first hit after CD
     
  13. Blamagenkind

    Blamagenkind Member

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    What are you talking about? It answers the question.
    This is what my understanding of what happened in his test:
    1: Entangling Claws procs & goes on cooldown.
    2: Bear attacks 20 times while Entangling Claws is on cooldown.
    3: Entangling Claws didn't proc immediately on the next attack after the cooldown. It took him 9> hits.
    4: Since Entangling Claws has a 20% chance, it should've procced right after the cooldown because the limit of max attacks without it proccing(18) was exceeded.
    5: Conclusion: it does not increase while on cooldown.
     
  14. mapdesigner

    mapdesigner Member

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    this conclusion is not completely guaranteed. It could be that the counter C did increase during cooldown, and then it decreased again (randomly just like how a proc is decided), but then the the Proc was prevented due to ability being on CD

    This will result in a reset of the counter, but with no proc Due to CD of ability

    so your conclusion is only a possible explanation of what is happening, it is not the only explanation.

    I already asked same question in dota wiki, and we'll see what @Bu3ny have to say there.
    ____________________________________________________

    The kind of test below can answer the question accurately:
    If a PRD ability with CD procced (e.g. entangling claws), What will be the chance for it to Proc the first time after CD expires? provided that there is only one hit during CD which cannot Proc.

    If the test find out that the chance for first hit after CD to Proc is C, then counter does not increase during CD.

    If the test find that the chance for first hit after CD was a little bit below 2xC, then the CD can increase during CD, and can also reset.

    if test finds out it is exactly 2xC, then Counter cannot reset during CD


    Edit: so basically the test done above can conclude that PRD does not strictly increase during CoolDown: either "it is constant of C" or it can "increase and decrease randomly"
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2016