1. Hello and welcome to the brand new home for PlayDota!
    Please read through our Welcome thread to see what's new!
    Dismiss Notice

Naiad, the Forest Witch

Discussion in 'Hero Ideas' started by FightFightFight, Apr 3, 2017.

  1. FightFightFight

    FightFightFight Member

    1,585
    42
    48
    Jan 30, 2014

    Naiad, the Forest witch

    image.png

    Greetings, I'm FightFightFight and this is the first of my hero suggestions that pretends to be of untraditional design. Naiad is a spellcaster focused on the manipulation of natural powers. She has strong teamfight potential with AoE damage and slow spells, and can save yourself or allies by granting them flying movement. Additionally, she has the ability to transform into any creature she meets, gaining its spells and some special benefits. This allows her to be played as a semi-carry or support depending on what your team needs.

    Stats
    Strength: 18 + 1.4
    Agility: 20 + 1.7
    Intelligence: 20 + 3.0


    Advanced stats
    Damage: 50-53
    Armor: 1.8
    Movespeed: 300
    Attack Range: 600
    Missile speed: 1300
    Attack animation: 0.45/0.3
    Casting animation: 0.2/0.2

    Innate skills

    [​IMG]
    Research creature - (active, unit-targeting)
    Researches target non-hero unit, allowing you to morph into it via Natural Form.

    Manacost: 0
    Cooldown: 60 seconds
    Casting time: 1.5 seconds
    Casting range: 350
    Duration: indefinite (until new creature is researched)

    Notes:
    • Normally works only on non-summon non-ancient units. Choosing certain talents will unlock more allowed targets.
    • Does not work on Spirit Bear, Roshan, Primal Split Elements and wards no matter what talents you've got.
    • This is innate ability available from the game start.
    • Dying does not cause you to forget unit you've researched.
    • (WC3 Dota) When morphing into creature with two active skills, this ability will be hidden, since there's not enough room at the command card.

    Learnable Skills

    [​IMG]
    1. Creeping Death (active, point-targeting)
    Summons a swarm of insects that deal physical damage to enemy units in an area each second and force affected spellcasters to spend extra mana when activating their spells. The area of effect slowly expands over the duration of the spell.

    Manacost: 133
    Cooldown: 35/32/29/26 seconds
    Area of effect: from 350 to 950
    Duration: 12 seconds
    DPS: 15/20/25/30
    Extra mana: 12/13/14/15% of maximum mana pool
    Cast range: 1000

    Notes:
    • Spells without manacost does not trigger this.
    • Extra mana is subtracted after spellcasting is finished.
    • Does not work on magic immune units.

    [​IMG]
    2. Natural Form (active, instant)
    Transforms you into the last creature you've researched, adjusting your movement type, attack range, attack animation and missile speed to those of researched creature. In this form you benefit from researched creature's active and passive abilities.

    Bonus HP (melee unit): 50/100/150/200
    Bonus damage (ranged unit): 5/10/15/20
    Manacost: 30
    Cooldown: 30 seconds
    Transformation time: 0.5 seconds
    Duration: 20/10 seconds (ground/flying creature)

    Notes:
    • Does nothing if you didn't researched any unit yet.
    • HP in this form equals to normal hero's HP + bonus HP (when morphing to melee creatures).
    • Damage in this form equals to normal hero's base damage + bonus damage (when morphing to ranged creatures).
    • Does not affect mana, stats, base armor, magic resistance, BAT, MS, vision range.
    • When activated, the icon is replaced with "Normal Form" subability that ends the effect of the spell instantly.

    [​IMG]
    3. Owl's Wisdom (active, unit-targeting)
    Grants target allied unit flying movement and vision and reduces damage taken from ground units.

    Damage Reduction: 5/10/15/20 %
    Manacost: 70
    Cooldown: 45 seconds
    Duration: 10/11/12/13 seconds

    Notes:
    • Reduces damage of all damage types.
    • If duration ends over unpathable terrain, unit will be placed on nearest pathable place. It can still get stuck in inaccessible place however.

    [​IMG]
    4. Swampland (Active, point-targeting)
    Floods target area with water, causing all ground units to move and attack at constant minimal speed regardless of MS/IAS boosting effects. Units that normally move/attack at maximum speed will be moving/attacking at their normal speed instead. Flying units are unaffected.

    Casting range: 1000
    Area of effect: 650/750/850
    Manacost: 250/300/350
    Cooldown: 160 seconds
    Duration: 8/10/12 seconds

    Notes:
    • This spell affects both enemy and allied units.
    • Destroys trees in target area on cast.
    • Can be cancelled earlier.
    • The effect is applied every 0.1 seconds on all units within area of effect.
    • Leaving area removes the effect instantly.
    • Works on invulnerable and magic immune units, except for Juggernaut in Omnislash and Ember Spirit in Sleight of Fists.
    • Does not work on structures or wards.

    Talents

    Level 10: Research creature can be used on summoned units OR +5 all stats
    Level 15: +25% XP Gain OR +25 damage
    Level 20: 13% Evasion OR 20% magic resistance.
    Level 25: Research creature can be used on ancient units OR Natural Form infinite duration

    Notes:
    • Warlock's golems and Visage's revenants are also considered ancients for Research Creature's purposes.

    Natural Form special interactions
    Harpies: Morphing into these units produces a flying unit, despite that these creatures aren't actually flying (Dota2).
    Mud Golem: Dying produces the same Shard Golems as original unit.
    Ancient Dragons: Morphing into these units produces a flying unit, despite that these creatures aren't actually flying (Dota2).
    Eidolons: Performing a number of attacks produces the same Eidolons as original spell, but does not refresh hero's health.
    Scout Hawk: When morphing into this creature, the hero is still capable of attacking (ranged attack with the same properties as Naiad's normal attack), despite that original unit has no attack.

    Jakdaw (deviantart.net) for picture
    Jon & summer-penguin for icons

    04.04.2017
    Small fixes to descriptions & missing details added.
    Added picture
    19.06.2017
    Added "Natural Form special interactions"
    Rewrote some descriptions
    Added skill icons
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2017
    Haasva likes this.
  2. Haasva

    Haasva Member

    2,525
    106
    63
    Dec 26, 2011
    Very interesting, I want to play this hero NOW !!!
    Everything seems fine, talents are well thoughts, except ulti. I don't really enjoy it, I dont know. Feels quite dull.

    PS: I want to see a flying catapult, or an ogre, or even a walking courier xD
     
  3. summer-penguin

    summer-penguin Moderator Staff Member

    1,787
    894
    113
    Feb 18, 2011
    FightFightFight is there a good reason why Research Creature and Normal Form are not part of Natural Form?
    You want to allow Naiad to start researching even if you choose not to level Natural Form, is that it?
    It seems that Research Creature and Normal Form do absolutely nothing w/out Natural Form. They're affixed to it, and they don't interact w/ anything else Naiad has, at all.
    So why not have them as sub-skills to Natural Form?

    Also, scrap the plural from this sentence: "Dying does not cause you to forget units you've researched."
    Got me confused. Here was I wondering why Natural Form would only allow you to change into the last researched unit, when you could store different units w/ Research Creature. (lol)
    "Dying does not cause you to forget your last researched unit" is much better.
    So dumbasses like me won't start looking for a hidden ability somewhere that would allow you to open a menu of researched units and pick one. (lolĀ²)

    Untraditional indeed.
    [​IMG]

     
  4. FightFightFight

    FightFightFight Member

    1,585
    42
    48
    Jan 30, 2014
    Pretty much this, allowing player to research creature for future use at game start even if he chooses to level other skill first. Researching strong creature requires waiting for a jungle spawn, but it still be good idea to have strong creature researched beforehand, instead of wasting time later finding it (or being stuck with only lane creeps that have no abilities).

    As for Normal Form, actually yes, it is not needed to be a separate ability, since it's just a deactivation.
     
    summer-penguin likes this.
  5. summer-penguin

    summer-penguin Moderator Staff Member

    1,787
    894
    113
    Feb 18, 2011
    If you're looking for icons, my compilation of 128x128 icons might help you out. You know it, right?
     
  6. summer-penguin

    summer-penguin Moderator Staff Member

    1,787
    894
    113
    Feb 18, 2011
    Fighty, there's a certain thing called Creep-heroes. You can check it here, at Dota 2 Wiki.
    Brewmaster's Earth, Storm and Fire, the Spirit Bear, Visage's Familiars and Warlock's Golem.

    And I don't think cast animations (as stats) still exist.

    I think Owl's Wisdom should destroy trees around you as you land. I don't think Pure damage should be reduced by it.
    And why not a slightly smaller and perhaps flat duration (perhaps even 10 seconds), and a scaling cooldown? Personally, I would rather it like that, why did you do it like this?
    And huh... the title feels odd. It's Owl's Wisdom and you allow someone to fly?
    :ninja:

    The extra mana cost from Creeping Death looks way too crippling, doesn't it? For 12 seconds?
    Wouldn't 10% do?
    And what's up with that mana cost... 133?

    Swamplant numbers also seem over the top.
    It pierces spell immunity, reduces movespeed to a minimum (almost a root), attackspeed to a minimum (almost a disarm), and it has a cast range of 1000 units w/ an AoE of 650/750/850 radius. And it lasts 8/10/12 seconds.
    That's a slightly too beefed version of Overgrowth.
    Yes it has a gigantic cooldown, yes it does not root or disarm, but it is nearly the same thing. It doesn't even reduce movespeed and attackspeed by 500 (for example), it simply drops them to the minimum, doesn't matter how much you have, you'll get the minimum. That's nearly the same thing, and it lasts too long to do that.
    Yes you can blink and all, but still, I would love to see its duration getting a good nerf. Maybe 6/7/8 seconds, and a scaling cooldown? Idk.
    It looks a bit beefed to me. Not all that imba, no, but still a bit too strong.
     
  7. FightFightFight

    FightFightFight Member

    1,585
    42
    48
    Jan 30, 2014
    Creep-heroes is just an abstraction gamepedia invented to represent "Ancient classification" + "spells lasts as long as on heroes" (a.k.a. resistant skin in wc3). Technically, most spells still decide the interactions based on ancient/summoned classification, so there's no reason to bring it into skill descriptions

    They don't. I'm just to lazy to specify the same cast point in every spell stats.

    why? a lot of spells from Dispercion to Overcharge don't care about damage types.

    But the duration nerf won't actually do anything. Since the spell also slows allies, it's mainly a setup spell and she wants to deactivate it way earlier then it hits max duration. Otherwise it would prevent her team from right-clicking down weakened enemy team after the advantage is already gained. Cast range probably would be better target for a nerf.
     
  8. summer-penguin

    summer-penguin Moderator Staff Member

    1,787
    894
    113
    Feb 18, 2011
    It would have it simpler.
    That's all the reason I've got.

    You could also replace its first two notes to:
    . A level 10 Talent allows her to Research summoned units.
    . A level 25 Talent allows her to Research ancient units.
    . Does not work on creep-heroes and wards.​

    And its description to: "Researches a non-ancient creep unit, allowing you to morph into it via Natural Form."

    Fair enough.

    It slows your allies as well? I missed that. Was it there or did you just added that to it? I see it now.
    Nevermind the things I said, I didn't know that then.
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2017
  9. FightFightFight

    FightFightFight Member

    1,585
    42
    48
    Jan 30, 2014
    But i didn't intended to exclude all creep heroes. I intended to only exclude Spirit Bear and Primal Split elements, because they are considered "special" units and morphing into them would be too weird (also they have abilities that could be imbalanced when put on heroes, such as Earth's permanent magic immunity or Spirit Bear's Demolish). But morphing into Golems or Familiars when both talents are learned sounds okay to me.

    It was there from the start, as the first in the list of notes. That's actually the whole reason of Owl's Wisdom and why i specify that morphing into certain creatures produces flying unit; so she can exclude herself or ally from slow.
    It's still probably OP, because 1000 cast range makes her easily top initiator. None of current AoE mass ults have so high range.
     
    summer-penguin likes this.
  10. Beary

    Beary Member

    440
    180
    43
    Jun 10, 2009
    Allowing allied units the capability to fly around is a cool and fun concept, but it doesn't fit your hero very well. A better adaptation of the third ability is a, "Gain sight of target area for a short duration. Allied units passing through area are granted zero collision." This would make good synergy with the sub-skill Research, make it global or a ridiculous range.
     
  11. Mimic

    Mimic Member

    955
    287
    63
    Aug 30, 2011
    I like the theme of the hero. I dislike that the innate and second skill are two separate skills. The two could be merged somehow with a little extra thought. I also dislike how the ultimate affects allied units. Would prefer if it had more synergy with the locusts. The owl skill needs a new name/theme but the concept is decent.
     
    summer-penguin likes this.
  12. FightFightFight

    FightFightFight Member

    1,585
    42
    48
    Jan 30, 2014
    What kind of hero you think could use this concept better?

    They could. But i intetionally made researching innate, so is's avaiable from game start, even if you choose to level different skill at level 1

    But they already have good synergy. The ultimate keeps enemies in AoE of Creeping Death to deal more damage.
     
  13. Mimic

    Mimic Member

    955
    287
    63
    Aug 30, 2011
    That doesn't make sense to me. The only way the innate is useful is if you level the second skill. The benefit of reasearching a creep early doesn't seem to justify the complications of having an innate active skill. A better option would be to cast Natural Form on a unit and transform into it. That's simple.

    Meh. Boring. Plus it's not that difficult to escape even with flat MS.
     
    summer-penguin likes this.
  14. FightFightFight

    FightFightFight Member

    1,585
    42
    48
    Jan 30, 2014
    The point of having researching at level 1 is making her soloing against shitty lanes viable. This allows her to level Owl at level 1, wait until jungle spawn, reasearch the best creep possible, and TP to hard lane. At level 2 she will have both escape spell and good creep ready for transform, without need to leave lane and search good creeps losing XP and gold.

    For a record, i didn't aimed to create a simple hero this time

    But that's completely different spell. "Cast on a unit and transform into it" means you can only transform into a unit currently present within cast range. It also adds ~0.1 sec extra delay for hovering mouse towards the target during combat. My idea is "remembering" form, and transforming later when you want, and instantly.
     
  15. Beary

    Beary Member

    440
    180
    43
    Jun 10, 2009
    Why not transform into a unique beast that can obtain multiple skills from researched creeps? What advantage does this hero gain by taking on the specific form of a researched creep?
     
    1Frame_Dynamism likes this.
  16. FightFightFight

    FightFightFight Member

    1,585
    42
    48
    Jan 30, 2014
    Obtaining multiple skills from reaserched creeps is sweet, but the command card space is limited even in Dota2, as well as people's ability to learn skills and their interactions. If even one extra innate ability folks consider too complicated, i'm afraid multiple skills obtained from different creeps will cause them to scratch their heads trying to realize how it works. Creating a hero that obtains a lot of multiple skills based on situation requires making his normal abilities very simple, which i'm currently not planning to do.

    Mainly its abilties, and also a flying movement/vision for flying creeps
     
  17. Beary

    Beary Member

    440
    180
    43
    Jun 10, 2009
    I feel Doombringer does a better job at taking creep abilities. Chen is by far the best user of creep abilities. This hero's transformation aspect is unique, but doesn't bring much more than movement. I suggest either boosting the new ability or providing some significant advantage that holds a strong synergy with the ultimate.

    Ghost form that allows the witch to possess creeps, make it difficult for her to die.
     
  18. Skulls_n_Souls

    Skulls_n_Souls Member

    1,171
    254
    83
    May 17, 2012
    I don't know if you're completely happy about that model, but I think this could work as well

    [​IMG]

    Reviewing soon.
     
    summer-penguin likes this.
  19. Skulls_n_Souls

    Skulls_n_Souls Member

    1,171
    254
    83
    May 17, 2012
    I don't feel that this hero should be reviewed in the traditional "review each ability solo" form for two reasons:
    1. Her abilities are good enough.
    2. Creative abilities is not what you went for her; you rather went the "creative role and playstyle" way.

    Based on that, here's my review.
    I know you don't like her being compared to Doom, but imo it is a valid comparison. So let's do it.
    In the early game, the basic things Doom can do, she can. She has a mobility skill, an AoE damage, and jungle-creep abilities - all of which are possessed by Doom. Since they have the basic things, let's see what advantages they have over each other:

    Doom:
    • Has AoE damage AND mobility in a single skill, reserving his third skill slot for his other powerful nuke.
    • He can control the AoE of the damage.
    • He gains gold from the creep he Devours, which results in him being more effective much faster.
    • He has a mini-stun with his blade, preventing TP's.

    Naiad:
    • Has an anti-casting characteristic: but this is of much less importance in early ganks, because, if a hero would survive a gank, casting a single skill is usually sufficient for them to escape.
    • Can make herself fly: in nowadays DotA, flying is much less effective than it was before in early game ganks. Back in the day, you had to chop at least 2 - 3 trees to get past a tree-line, whereas now you chop 1 and boom, you're there. It is still good, but not that much.
    • Can make her allies fly: okay, this is the very noticeable advantage over doom: providing low-mobility heroes with a good escape.

    In teamfights:

    Doom: In early teamfights, he can shutdown their strongest teamfighter - who is usually a caster at that time - for a considerable duration. In late ones, he can shut down powerful carry passives with his aghanim's upgrade which he'd probably get due to Devour.

    Naiad: Disrupts both teams' attack and movespeeds except for hers (sometimes) and a hero of her choice. To tell the truth, the AS slow is much more effective late-game than it is early on, and since the movespeed slow affects both teams, it is very hard to make use of. Locust shines here as well, tbh. You might compare it to Chronosphere, but that is not a valid comparison because Chrono fully disables, disallowing enemies to react.

    So, Doom's teamifght effectiveness early and late is quite good, while Naiad's is meh early and good late.
    Plus, Doom is substantially tankier.

    In conclusion, I think the sole advantage for Naiad is creating an escape for your immobile heroes, and countering multiple casters instead of one, which is negated against Doom's numerous advantage (rapid gold gain, better teamfight presence due to skills + tankiness, better damage in early ganks.)