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Muslim migration and integration debates

Discussion in 'World News & Debate' started by lovestep, Oct 20, 2016.

  1. lovestep

    lovestep Member

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    Oh I disagree, we had plenty of muslim protests and violence in France even before that, they are agitated by their imams and told to impose the islamic view on everyone in society, now it is slowly turning into what the UK has been experiencing for the last 6 years.

    Let's have a quick look at what happens in a small town in UK once the local imam starts preaching his hateful view of the world.
    If you don't feel like watching a 4 minute video, just skip to 3:20, that's the part that pretty much sums it up.


    The influence of this particular imam has spread greatly and he is now a respectable authority to the majority of muslims in the UK. In London residence areas there is a thing called "sharia patrol" which is basically a group of men that patrol around during the night and harass women to remind them that unless they wear the burka they are asking to be raped.

    If you can't take my word for it, there are plenty of videos online exposing it. But you don't see that on the media, do you? Why?

    Which is why they use tunnels to get inside Israel and send their children armed with knives on rampages. That's how deep hatred runs in these people.
     
  2. Nezekan

    Nezekan Moderator Staff Member

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    Europe opened it doors when it could, America did it sooner because once their wars were complete it was a gigantic country with a few million people. Not only they opened their borders they started having 6+ families. Europe population was enough for itself already, until roughly 50 years ago. Small countries like Switzerland and Belgium are very picky with their immigrants since they really don't have the space so they never "opened up" to begin with. "Conservatives" in Europe are hardly Rightists. UK's current leading party which is called Conservative is not even right aligned, its Centre based, slightly aligned to right. Where as American conservatism is still its traditional self and pretty much right. Far right even in some cases. Which is why I said I have almost no problem with UK's conservative party. I merely suggested US should make some reforms regarding their conservative culture to be more like UK's

    American Democrats are also "awesome" if you are taking my explanation into consideration here since I only blamed conservatives in America, not all of America. For various reasons cultural assimilation happens a lot more frequently in Europe than America. I am one of them myself. You migrate to a Western European country, you see how well their economy, government and society works, specially in comparison to yours. After that there is little to no reason to try to keep your culture. You simply transfer and they actually give you the right. But when you move to America and see what's going you actually prefer keeping your culture.

    There are a lot of migrants in Netherlands but majority of them speak perfect Dutch and adopt the Dutch culture, and they enjoy their life which has been improved dramatically. Moving to America actually has good chance to make your life worse that what it was before. I mean sure you would be more "free" but it would be a gilded cage. So your keep your culture, there is no reason not to. Europe is pretty diverse racially, but the better culture is absorbing the rest. There are a lot of Muslims who have forsaken Islam and gotten new identities as well. Hardcore Muslims of course keep their culture, but they are pretty much the only ones.

    Extremism is not "news". You also had some Muslims speakings against those protesting, but they don't make it into media as much as the extremist ones. This type of attitude deserves to be fought back obviously, but they were not a nationwide problem that escalated into doubling police force. ISIS did just that.
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2016
  3. lovestep

    lovestep Member

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    Leaving a ''i disagree'' comment on twitter is not really speaking against these protests, and certainly not on the same magnitude.
    You don't seem to realize that this is not an isolated incident, where they got upset for 2-3 days, chanted in the streets and then resumed their lives. This is a movement that is steadily growing in power, and now with the influx of refugees and mosques sponsored by Saudi Arabia this is only going to get worst. Especially since Saudi Arabia decides which imam preaches at what mosque, and Saudi have a very literal approach to the quran. It also doesn't help that the new mayor of London is muslim(guess the religion of the majority of his voters) and has told these refugees to "not adopt the western values".

    You mentioned how you like Hitch, what did he have to say about islam?

    These people don't change, they change the world around them.
     
  4. ToT

    ToT Member

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    I love the sweeping generalization that "Muslims cannot integrate well into western societies". Um, since when did Muslims become one homogeneous group?
    If the Muslims of your country are giving you trouble, then look into your politics and the history of the conflict to find the root of the problem, instead of grouping them all under one label.
    They're a pretty huge demographic.
     
  5. Eutychius

    Eutychius Moderator Staff Member

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    Moved a bunch of posts unrelated to the US elections. You can carry on your conversation here.
     
  6. Petique

    Petique Member

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    No one implied that, however the majority has a certain set of worldview that is pretty much the opposite of western liberal democracies. The root of the problem is that Islam is a very aggressive and oppressive religion created in the middle ages to unify all the tribes under one banner to wage war. It is completely incompatible with our socieities in its current state and is in dire need of reforms. And yes muslims don't assimilate well, in Germany Turks that have been living there for decades still don't know how to speak German properly and they are even in the 'moderate muslims category.
     
  7. lovestep

    lovestep Member

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    That generalization is true for the majority of muslims. The ones who end up integrating are also the ones who have reduced mosque attendance, do not follow an imam and are generally ignorant when it comes to understanding the quran and the hadiths.
    I have met well integrated muslims as well, the only thing is, they are not actually muslims, just like many claim to be christians but do not actively engage in practicing their faith. They are believers in Allah, but not to the point where they engage in spiritual lecture and follow him as the prophet commanded. They do not even follow the 5 pillars of islam.

    I have no problem with those people, except that they call themselves muslim and in doing so, mix themselves up with this threat to civilization that we are facing called islam.

    And this is another problem, because Islam claims it is the last and final religion, Muhammad is the last and final prophet of God and the Quran is his final word. Anyone who tries to alter it is a blasphemer and an enemy of islam.

    Islam is a totalitarian ideology, just like dictatorship, it offers you the solution for everything, it manages everything from your private life, marriage, finance to your identity and behavior.

    I worked in Qatar among these people, among what is called the pinnacle of moderate islam, and the moment the news of the Orlando gay club attack came in our office I overheard many of my muslim colleagues asking that allah not let this man step foot in hell as he has done what is right.


    It's easy and seemingly the right thing to do, defending this religion when you are ignorant of it, but when you learn what it is it becomes repulsive to see how anyone in their right mind could try and find a place for this cancerous ideology in our society.
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2016
  8. ToT

    ToT Member

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    Mosque attendance is rare even in most Muslim countries. Mosque attendance isn't even required for Islam. What's funny is that mosque attendance seems seems to be higher in communities where Muslims are "ethnicized" - being considered as a very specific group of people.
    When Muslims - due to some circumstances - migrate to other countries with radically different culture, they tend to group up together, form closed communities, and hold-on to what keeps them in common: their religion. In some circumstances, that leads them to remain poor and uneducated, thereby forming ghettos. This not only applies to Muslims, but to any community that is suddenly forced to integrate itself in another community with a radically differing culture.
    (African Americans anyone?)

    Now what is and is not a Muslim is difficult (and controversial) to define. It is also not an objective truth, opinions and feelings vary per person. The same can be said for Christians.
    The literal definition of the arabic word Muslim means "one that submits himself to God", but that's not enough to define it. There is no complete set of rules that makes a person a Muslim, only things that most Muslims have in common.



    Dictatorship is not an ideology. Islam can be implemented as a totalitarian regime, but not necessarily. A lot of Islamic countries implement democracies and/or republics.
    I wouldn't go as far as saying that it offers the solution for everything - since it doesn't - but it does for a lot important aspects of life. Also, for most things, it doesn't offer the solution, it offers a solution. Unfortunately, a majority of Muslims do not know this.

    Stopped reading right there, and now I understand why you feel that way. I wouldn't touch anything Wahabi related with a 10 feet stick.

    K I lied, I kept reading. I'm not ignorant (?) of Islam. I live in a country with a 60% Muslim majority, the country as a whole is extremely religiously diverse for its size.

    And living in such a religiously diverse country that has a fuck-ton of problems, you would learn exactly where the root of the problems. You would learn exactly how to criticize religion. And you would learn exactly how to differentiate legitimate religion criticism, from ones that are inherently rooted in culture, politics, economics, or history.

    Hence why it appears that I'm 'defending' it to you. I'm not; I criticize it everyday in my daily life. I'm merely pointing out that your arguments don't really target the thing you think they do.

    Edit: Fixed a typo whereby I referenced African Americans in the wrong paragraph
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2016
  9. lovestep

    lovestep Member

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    Based on European Social Survey, mosque attendance is around 50% in the muslim population. Recent muslims who have migrated into EU have an attendance of 64% in the first year, and drops to around 50% in their second year.

    So you still have around half of the muslim population attending the mosque. The majority of new mosques that have been built since the mass immigration started have been sponsored by Saudi Arabia, and they get to appoint the imam, and guess what branch of islam that imam is going to preach... wahhabism, you yourself made it clear it is evil.

    We are talking about what makes one part of the islamic cult, not what the word muslim, which like many other terms in islam are very deceiving.
    What makes one a muslim is very simple actually, both Sunni and Shia have their specific ideas of what is required of one to be a muslim. I will not dive into Shia since we obviously don't want to discuss extremism but the "moderate'' side of islam.
    So, very straight forward, you must consider the Quran to be the final word of God, follow in the sunnah teachings and practices of muhammad in the hadith and fulfill the 5 pillars.
    The sunnah is basically what muhammad taught his followers is permitted and not permitted before God, halal and haram.
    And the 5 pillars are shahada, salat, sawn, haj, zakat. Shahada meaning accepting there is no god but allah and muhhamad is his prophet, salat meaning to pray 5 times a day facing the kaaba(located in mecca), sawn to fast during ramadan, haj at least once in your lifetime go on a pilgrimage to mecca, zakat be charitable to the poor/donate to charity.

    These are all mandatory tasks in the life of every muslim whose mind and body permit him to engage in them. Every muslim has a duty of following the 5 pillars.
    Now ask yourself how many of those kind, friendly and open minded people you know who call themselves muslims actually engage in this.

    And how can they? You cannot question the Quran or muhammad's teachings. You can bring no argument against these 2 outside of the Quran or you are a heretic. You are born in a muslim family, raised as a muslim, indoctrinated with this hateful shit and by the time you reach adulthood and can finally discover and decide for yourself chances are you are living under sharia law and will be punished with death for apostasy.

    The worst kind of vermin imaginable, everywhere they operate people turn against each other. I made some unimaginable amounts of money working for these people in Qatar, the luxury they surround themselves with is incredible, but there's only so much you can hear from them before growing sick, I know I'm never going back there no matter how much I could make.

    Dude you live among Hezbollah's home, Saudi's greatest fucking enemy, Hassan Nasrallah is one of the most interesting figures in the middle east. It's pretty obvious how you learned to hate the wahabbi, but his views aren't entirely peaceful either. He still considers that his war from 2006 with Israel is still on and it's only a ceasefire for the moment.

    I don't talk shit about things I don't know and I can't stand being ignorant, I almost learned as much about islam and the middle east as I did about my passion&job. I read the quran, sahih muslim and sahih al-bukhari and studied the interpretations. I can't deny there are teaching of love and kindness in there, but they are far out-numbered by horrors and evil. There are SO many verses calling out for violence against non-muslims, plenty of verses about Allah's mercy for those who believe but not a single one speaking of Allah's mercy for non-muslims. The majority of their kind teachings do not apply to non-muslims. Also they are openly practicing anti-semitism, they teach hatred against jews, not something up to interpretation, but downright HATRED. Not even their best "moderate" scholars can work a way around that, and admit that they have to hate the jews as is the command of Muhammad.

    I could give you some stomach turning quotes from the quran calling out for crucifying non-believers and those who speak out against islam. Or from sahih muslim about how muhammad's 9 years old wife sat at home washing semen stains from the prophet's clothing while he was at prayer like it was a fucking honor or something.
     
  10. ToT

    ToT Member

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    I agree with all of your general points, and we seem to be on the same page. In your last paragraph it's very clear that you can bring up valid arguments against Islam as a religion itself. I have, in old PD and IRL, debated those arguments to death, either on the side of Islam or against it, but usually somewhere in between. Needless to say, everyone grows tired of religion debates eventually.

    However, the only times I intervene in religion debates these days is when it's not really entirely religion debates, where usually socio-political arguments are used.

    Off-topic:
    You make it sound as my country is a raging hell-hole for war more than it actually is. :D
    It actually has a beautiful - though not always harmonious - blend of Western and Easter societies. If you want to see what the frontline between Western and Eastern values look like, you should visit Beirut.
     
  11. lovestep

    lovestep Member

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    True, but islam is very different from what a normal religious debate looks like imo, or it forces itself into the debate anyway when someone blows himself up and the rest of them come crying at you that they feel oppressed.
    Didn't mean to make it sound bad actually, sorry about that, I know Lebanon is a blend of east and west and I'd like to see Beirut, never had the chance so far, but I'm sure I'm going there in the nearby future. I was merely talking about the kind of perspective you would be exposed to there, and tbh Nasrallah isn't exactly wrong but far from peaceful.
     
  12. lovestep

    lovestep Member

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    Found it.
    Here's the cancer I was talking about. This is where things were over a year ago, it has only gotten worse since then

     
  13. xpforever

    xpforever Member

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    I don't think any major religion has anything that makes it inherently a problem. It's not like other religions haven't modernized. The problem is that:
    1. Many refugees are put into refugee camps (i.e. concentrated with other similar people) rather than society at large, or placed into heavily Muslim areas. Neither of these does much for integration, since they'll just congregate among themselves and you don't get anywhere with regards to integration.
    2. Too many, too fast also adds to the problem. You have to wait for the ones you've got to integrate before pouring more in, because the new ones will see that the old ones are more "modern" or "progressive" and they'll be more likely to do the same.
    3. Welfare states cause further problems. More welfare means people don't have to mingle as much with the rest of society, which further slows down any integration that would have happened.
    4. Often times, education is provided (remember, many of the refugees can't read or write - in any language) but there is no incentive for them to actually get educated. If you told them "go to school or we'll cut off your welfare/deport you" then that might work, but as it stands there's almost no reason for them to do so.
     
    Eli_Green likes this.
  14. HHHNNNGGG

    HHHNNNGGG Member

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    Concerning Muslim migration, I don't think Clinton actually try to increase Syrian refugees on US soil. Apparently it is just a move to appeal to voters and make an opposite stance against Trump. Increasing refugees is unlikely to pass the Congress, and I think Clinton knows it as well, giving her experience.
     
  15. Nezekan

    Nezekan Moderator Staff Member

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    FBI checks can take up to a year, even then you could still get a refusal. The congress might actually accept her proposal but there won't actually be an increase in number of refugees taken in. There will be more cases and consequently more refusals. Politics.
     
  16. FlaMe

    FlaMe Moderator Staff Member

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    And what solution is being proposed here? Or is it just a rant?
     
  17. lovestep

    lovestep Member

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    There are plenty of solutions to this that are rather obvious, that was not the point, the point was debating their refusal to integrate and the actual danger the people carrying the islam ideology pose to the west.
     
  18. FlaMe

    FlaMe Moderator Staff Member

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    I'd like to hear some solutions anyways.

    Debating about a problem without actually proposing a solution is a rant basically.
     
  19. lovestep

    lovestep Member

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    -obey the freaking refugee international law and STOP in the first safe country that can host you, not dash through them to reach the welfare hot spots like Germany, UK, Sweden
    -abandon your culture and assimilate the one of the country you migrate to, you are a guest, you obey the rules of the house
    -ban all imams affiliated with Saudi Arabia from preaching
    -temporary camps where they are housed before mandatory background and (at least) psychological screenings can be performed
    -12 months integration window during which at the smallest offence you are deported, for serious offences and instigation to violence your whole family gets deported.
    If you don't find a legal place to work, with the help of the government, in 6 months, you are deported
    -mandatory courses for becoming proficient in the local language, learning their history, traditions and culture
    -mandatory enrollment into a social club
    -mandatory community service or volunteering at least 3-5 days/month for the 12 months integration period
    -encourage real, factual debates about the true face of islam on mainstream media so apologists can stop praying on the ignorance of the public and actually understand what this religion is, what it implies and how it can affect the individual and world around him

    And many more actually, these are just the immediately obvious ones, didn't even have to think about them.

    But this is just treating the symptoms unfortunately migrants are just a symptom of the war in Syria and the general state of the arab and african world.

    If you want to treat the cause then you need to educate the world about what is actually going on in Syria, which are the sides, what is keeping Isis alive, why the US insists to remove Assad, draw some conclusions and gain public support and pressure to actually solve the Syrian problem and force the US to end it's campaign there.

    Not when not everyone is on the same page and people still seem to think the problem is coming from somewhere else.
     
  20. ToT

    ToT Member

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    This thread was forked from the US Elections debate. It seems as if OP is a rant, but it's only a continuation.