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Make a hero have good carrying potential

Discussion in 'Remakes' started by doomboy, Jun 12, 2018.

  1. doomboy

    doomboy Member

    Jun 12, 2010
    One of the fun of Dota is being a carry.
    it feels good killing other dudes, after all... and it feels better, when you're doing it with a hero everyone thought is supposed to be a support

    so yeah, since IF is looking at reddit nowadays anyway, why don't we remake heroes to become a carry or semi-carry, just for the heck of it?
    their original role must be still viable for use/be their main use

    Bounty Hunter

    • Aura Track gold is now 60/70/80 gold on all levels (from 40/80/120)
    • Free Track bonus gold on self is reduced from 150/250/350 to 90/130/170
    • Track duration from 30 to 19/22/25 seconds (for aghanims, Track duration is 30 seconds)
    • Track Definition is changed from :
    "Tracks an enemy hero, granting True Sight of the target, and information on how much gold it is carrying. Allies near the hunted are granted bonus movement speed. If the target dies, Bounty Hunter and nearby heroes collect a bonus bounty of gold."

    "Tracks an enemy hero, granting True Sight of the target, and information on how much gold it is carrying. Allies near the hunted are granted bonus movement speed. If the target dies, BH and allied heroes within Area of effect collect a bonus bounty of gold. Bounty Hunter always get extra gold for himself." (this means that ONLY if BH is inside track's aura when the enemy died, he will get the Aura track gold of 60/70/80 gold.)
    • Track Mana cost from 65 to 55/70/85
    • Track cast range reduced from 1200 to 900/1050/1200
    • shadow walk mana cost increased from 65 to 60/65/70/75
    • Shuriken Toss mana cost increased from 150 to 165/160/155/150
    • shadow walk fade time is now a flat 1 second on all level
    • Jinada cooldown increased from 12/10/8/6 to 19/15/11/7

    • Track now grants Attack Speed Bonus (16%/18%/20%) alongside with the move speed bonus to allied units
    • Track Aura increased from 900 to 1250
    • track now passively grants BH 150/175/200 AoE flying vision (not tracked heroes, the flying vision is like Nightstalker's aghanim --surrounding BH)
    • Track is automatically applied on a Jinada hit, without triggering track's cooldown.
    • being inside Track aura overzeals Bounty hunter for nearing his targets, granting him 5/15/25 All stats
    • Casting track no longer breaks BH's invisibility
    • Track Aura lingers for 5 seconds for BH only, does not affect his gold gain
    • Shadow walk now allows BH to phase through trees (but not cliffs)
    • Jinada cannot miss
    • Jinada crit damage from 150%/175%/200%/225% to 130%/170%/210%/250%
    • Jinada Slow from 15%/20%/25%/30% to 20%/27%/33%/40%
    • Shuriken Toss mini stun from 0.1 to 0.3/0.45/0.6/0.75 (aghs increases this to a flat 0.75s, 0.95 second if you take the level 15 talent)
    • Shuriken Toss Cooldown from 10 to 11/10/9/8
    • BH base agility increased from 21 to 29
    • BH base INT increased from 19 to 21
    • BH agility gain from 3.0 to 3.5 (+12 AGI in total on level 25)
    • BH's BAT improved from 1.7 to 1.6
    • BH's Night vision improved from 1000 to 1150
    • BH's base movement speed increased from 315 to 330
    Talent changes:
    Lv 25: +300 [​IMG] Track Gold OR 50% Evasion

    Lv 20: +125% [​IMG] Jinada Critical Strike OR +75 [​IMG] Shuriken Toss Damage

    Lv 15: +350 Health OR +50 Attack Speed

    Lv 10: +25% XP Gain OR +25 Movement Speed

    Lv 25: +20 All Stats OR 40% cooldown reduction

    Lv 20: +17% Jinada Trigger chance OR +30% evasion

    Lv 15: +0.2s Shuriken Ministun OR +30 Mana burn

    Lv 10: +12 AGI OR +200 Health point

    • Jinada triggering track does not pay the track mana cost
    • Illussions only burn 18 mana per hit instead of 30
    • The strength bonus does not keep the current health percentage, but instead adds 18 health per strength to the current health pool.


    BH now basically gets quite a lot of beefiness compared to before thanks to the free stats, he's now also overally better roamer and is capable of solo Killing heroes (something that he's intended for on early days of Dota). but in return, his track gold gain is reduced very significantly, making the appeal of picking him changes from 'trying to get significant gold advantages on wars' to 'getting a good roamer whom can shift to semi-carry hunter'

    even though he's a semi-carry, his usage is very different from Riki. since Riki is far more useful in a war, capable of silencing heroes and dealing damage, also Riki can be played as a carry anyways since he have survivability and very high hitting damage output. he's also going to be played VERY differently from Nyx

    The goal of this remake isn't necessarily changing his playstyle to be a carry, really. since he's still very weak compared to other carries in term of war damage potential. you can still play him by tracking from afar then shuriken tossing them for a good damage and annoying mini stun. the track gold is really reduced significantly only on level 3, for your allies, so it shouldn't be that bad of a nerf for support BH, in fact at level 1, track is better than ever.

    however, now if you want to try becoming a carry since you gain a lot of early momentum, you can do that far better with the added beefiness and damage output.
    with 18k gold and level 20, 1 vs 1 of an enemy carry against BH might actually ends with BH's victory simply because he outstat the enemy.

    feel free to post your ideas...
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2018
  2. kamukag3e

    kamukag3e Member

    Jun 11, 2009
    The idea gives nothing new and outside of actually lowering the efficiency of the hero and making him able to carry harder in public games won't get anything else.

    The hero have multiple issues on the carry role and they are not touched, you just propose to buff his current abilities as such and reduce his potential impact as a support or roamer.

    Even now he was easily able to transition into a carry or be played like such in low-skilled games, where multiple things were not used from the opponents, he could easily burst down any low-health hero and with your proposed buff will be able to do it even more easily. But in higher rated games and competitive his damage output was never the problem on his path as a core.

    Sorry, but to change him from his current position into a core role, you need to change a lot more things and address his limitations and not play with the numbers alone.
  3. doomboy

    doomboy Member

    Jun 12, 2010
    this indeed is true in case for BH carry.
    he's extremely lacking in term of survivability unlike other carries, but the point of this thread isn't to completely change how you play a hero, but instead add better potential for him to carry or semi-carry

    he can still do what he does right now, even though its worse if you dont utilize his buffed burst damage potential. but if you do, you can terrorize the whole map

    you can also play him as a carry (way better than before, at least), though like alchemist, he'll need a LOT of items to do so
  4. kamukag3e

    kamukag3e Member

    Jun 11, 2009
    Actually, despite the increase in his burst with the proposed changes I think his carry abilities will still be on par with the current BH we have now.

    I mean a buff to his abilities will increase his damage, but the reduced bounties per kill will lower his gold and thus items, so he will basically miss some timings (item efficiency are much more reliant on their timing then on hero's skills).

    But BH doesn't lack only survivability, he also lacks mobility, farming speed (outside of kills that is), AoE presence and pushing power. His damage is also not that high or scary without damage items, nor his nuking power is on par with some other carries such as Luna, Morph or Gyrocopter on it's own.

    So he really need damage items to be able to deal damage, but if you lower his gold income from Track he will have too little money to work with to fix his shortcomings.

    He is good at killing solo heroes (when ahead) and in skirmishes, but he is really bad at team fights or against heroes with escape mechanism when he can't burst them instantly and that's despite his net worth, his tools just don't let him do that. Choosing to build him as a carry will be a gamble for a high skilled/competitive game.
  5. doomboy

    doomboy Member

    Jun 12, 2010
    BH doesnt lack mobility, with phase and SnY, his ms will be 500++

    and no, BH's gold gain is NOT reduced that much, maybe late game once it hits level 3 (350 to 280 is a lot of reduction)
    but level 1 stays at 150 and lv 2 -35 gold is not that significant (1 creep covers that)

    the burst damage increment is insane tbh, this version of BH can easily dish out 1k+ damage with just phase and aquila on level 10, before this buff, he can only deal around 750 (THIS CALCULATION IS BEFORE REDUCTION)

    easily killing supports or lone carries without escape abilities, though you'll need to sneak in undetected for that kill.

    i design this BH to be kinda a snowball hero, if this guy have good early, he can hunt like crazy, be super rich and completely killing the enemies.

    if he's played as a support, track now provide damage increase, so even though weakened, its providig something more during the war. though winning a war wont give a 3k+ networth swing (even during mid game) like before and thus track IS nerfed overall

    i make this BH to be not very item dependant in term of dishing out insane damage. just aquila, phase, SnY and Vessel will turn the guy into complete beast outclassing EVERY OTHER HEROES with equal networth.... roaming the land like crazy (with those items, he have around ~480 movement speed even without phase active)
    well, except for eul nevermore, but nvm's ult is long cooldown vs BH's always active hunt
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2018
  6. asokaaso2

    asokaaso2 Member

    Apr 26, 2014
    My propose idea for BH

    Track is now an innate ability allowing you to choose which unit to track by clicking their portrait (a new unique GUI for BH). Track grants bonus gold to the killer and half for the assist. The bonus gold is 20 multiplied by the tracked hero's level. Changing the tracked hero puts this ability on cooldown for 10 seconds. If the tracked hero is killed, this cooldown will reset. Track will not trigger if BH is not within 1500 radius of the killer.

    Q - Shuriken Toss
    Same effect but if the target is the tracked hero, the hero is leashed to where the shuriken hit the target.

    W - Jinada
    While Manhunt is active, Jinada will allow you to blink to the tracked hero upon attacking if Jinada is not on cooldown. Has 400 range.

    E - Windwalk
    While Manhunt is active, BH is granted with bonus movement speed while approaching the tracked hero.

    R - Manhunt
    Reveals every enemy hero on the map for few seconds. The duration is doubled for tracked hero.

    Aghanim's Scepter Upgrade
    Manhunt puts all hero on Track for the duration and allows Shuriken Toss to bounce within 400 radius to all tracked heroes.
  7. kamukag3e

    kamukag3e Member

    Jun 11, 2009
    Most heroes nowadays reach those movement speed, it's nothing spectacular.

    Any support with Tranquil and Wind Lace reach 400 movement speed without any skills and for 1,175 gold. Being able to outperform that for 5,540 while using a skill on top is not 'being mobile'.

    Weaver, Spirit Breaker, Puck, Storm Spirit and Tinker are mobile, those heroes can cover 2,000-3,000 range in few seconds. Being slightly faster then others is not going to magically cover a 1,000 range distance anytime soon.

    Hero like him, who cannot flash-farm and can't be on par with other carries so being behind can't be considered in good position, then you have an ability to catch-up which you reduce.
    He is not super-strong early game like Chaos Knight and insane damage over time, nor the flash farming abilities of Sven, Luna, AM or others. His ability to carry a game is only limited to 2 things - not being shut-down in the early game and manage to snatch easy kills one after the other after he reach level 6, that's really big requirement for a carry to be able to be pulled off.

    To a single target ... Now look at Lina at level 10 with Phase and Aquila, Luna, Slark, Clinkz, Morph ?
    They can easily deal a lot more damage at that point.
    1,000 damage to a single target at level 10 is something which a lot of supports can dish out, carries are supposed to scale with items and experience and to be able to kill multiple heroes alone in the later stages of the game, something BH doesn't excel at. He has no way to deal with kiting and crowd-control abilities, nor a way to deal damage to multiple heroes and burst down durable targets like Sven, WK or Chaos Knight.

    Once they bypass his damage thrash hold his following damage is highly dependable on his reach (melee without mobility skill) and not as scary as you think it is. So basically cores can do that really easy, supports - depend on the state of the game and other factors.

    Sneaking in undetected is no as easy as you make it seem, two heroes are currently using that style of play (Slark and Clinkz) and both of them are really scary, with disables - build in or part of their itemization - and yet not even they can guarantee kill the enemy if they are not ahead, nor reach them once they start moving as a group and basically force them to enter team-fights all the time. BH is not only weaker then those two - he lack their DPS and slippery, while having all of their weaknesses.

    And once again - 450 movement speed and even 500 is not spectacular anymore, you are closing at most 100 points of distance every second against a support with 400 ms and if they have some slow/stun or mobility skill (dagger, Force Staff) to put additional distance, you have to close unimaginable gap unless you manage to burst them down instantly.[/quote][/quote]
  8. doomboy

    doomboy Member

    Jun 12, 2010

    BH can just buy daggers for those :3, since the buffs already increase his burst damage potential to the max, he wont need too much other items. though its preferable if you can sneak in instead and deal the extra damage from breaking invisibility

    and yep, BH can kill those heroes easily while those heroes won't (at least if they only have equal networth to a aquila and phase), because of the invisibility. BH is pretty tough, his initial armor is 7, and by level 10, he'll have about ~15 armor and with phase, he can just run from clinkz and slark, also morph

    if this change is ever implemented, even slark will have hard time from being tracked twice (once from jinada trigger, once from the usual cast) clinkz will have his movement speed slowed enough for BH to get kills, Lina will have a hard time landing her skills (i often cast shuriken before Lina does her skills, and the normal stun is easy to dodge with 480+ ms), morph, welp, if he goes all agi you'll be able to kill him, but if you failed, well, you failed (you cant kill him once he shift to STR if he have enough HP).

    i mean, sure, he wonT be able to kill ALL heroes, and he will still be counterable vs spirit breaker and such.

    this changes wont change how he'll be played, he'll still be insanely good very early roamer that have problems in doing anything but tracks in wars.... this rework is just giving an option for him to shift to semi carry BETTER, even though it'll be pulled off on lower brackets and not THAT viable on Divine games.

    once he kills, he's easy to be killed, this doesnt change that. this rework just make him kill easier than before.

    srsly, this rework isnt meant to change BH into a super hero with 2000 range blink and have 200 base damage or even give him a 30% evasion talent on level 15 (which will make him become insanely good semi carry, btw), this rework is meant so that if he does well early game, you are OKAY to be buying items like orchid, SnY and stuffs like that, things that will grant you kills, instead of force staffs, glimmers and Greaves. because you can kill enemies fast enough for you to do BETTER as a semi carry than a rich support.

    his farming problems can easily be solved with a battlefury. (remember old him? SnY BF ftw)
    and he's a pretty good last hitter with jinada and shadow walk, if you ever want to try to play him as a safelane carry, or an offlane pos 3 (2 1 2 setup, since he'll need a support) until level 6

    Shadowwalk 0.85 fade time buff is insane, if you know, you can deal the shadow walk bonus damage without breaking shadow walk invisibility AND deal the bonus 30/60/90/120 damage if you attack within the shadow walk fade time (1/0.75/0.5/0.25)

    i can pull off this with level 2 shadow walk, but its insanely hard on level 3, and pretty sure its imposible to do on level 4. but with 0.85 fade time, you can deal 120 damage TWICE, making shadow walk a 360 damage nuke (open attack with shadow walk, then attack again within the fade time, then attack again to break invisibility and deal +120 damage FOR ALL 3 attacks)

    and oh yeah, i also increase SW damage to 150, so that's a 450 physical damage nuke without any items. with aquila and phase, and maybe an urn + wand , at level 10 (lv 4 shuriken, lv 1 jinada, lv 3 SW, lv 1 ult, and +10 AGI talent) he can pull this off:

    attack an enemy, deal jinada crit and +110 dmg from SW (it will be around 250+ damage in total (because track dmg increment), before reduction)
    cast shuriken, deal 350 damage (625+ dmg in total, before reduction)
    cast SW, deal +110 dmg and hit before fade time is over (770+ damage in total, before reduction)
    and hit again with final SW buffed attack, breaking invis (925+ damage in total, before reduction)

    this is a LOWball, btw, he can deal way more than that, and also...

    this is all done within 1.2 second. and if the enemy is still alive (which wont be THAT rare) you can just hit normally when they have less than 200 HP remaining, even on a pretty tough heroes, and on legend-ancient matches, is usually panicking then died pretty soon after.

    sure, you need to make sure that there;s no sentry there, which IS unlikely on divine matches but you can pull this off pretty often on lower brackets or pub matches. even on ancient matches, sometimes you can spot enemy cores with 1k hp left just jungling in their jungles.
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2018
  9. ThunderTF2

    ThunderTF2 Member

    Dec 27, 2011
    I was working on BH's balance last month (not done yet - talents and ultimate isnt ready)
    Track ruins balance a hell lot.
    And im not going to release any balance reworks/updates until past-TI patch.
    Recommend you to do the same, cuz post-TI patch would be huge AND might be great.
    Manhunt ability looks neat, but innate track (as it is) is out of balance.
  10. Blamagenkind

    Blamagenkind Member

    Jun 10, 2009
    The only changes I see here that could turn BH into a carry would be the stats change, and maybe the talents. The increased Jinada cooldown and the longer fade time of Shadow Walk are more likely to hinder his ability to carry, the increase in damage does not make him a carry because he's already burst oriented. You just buffed his damage, nothing is really different here. The change on Track isn't carry oriented either, it sounds like a targeted version of Natural Order, which btw reduces base resistances by 100% at level 4.

    The problem with BH carry is that he is gated by preparation. He has 3 damaging spells but 2 of those are melee, one of those is a passive and has a cooldown. Shuriken Toss has a very short cast range and has this weird forced synergy with his ultimate. Track doesn't provide him anything more than movement and vision. His kit is just better for a roaming hero than a carry. If you want to change him into a carry, remake one or two skills, don't just tweak the numbers.
  11. asokaaso2

    asokaaso2 Member

    Apr 26, 2014
    I think reducing the bounty will do it, it's kinda weak on early game and only shines on late game. His current skill set and stats is ok so I think only the abilities should be reworked.
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2018
  12. doomboy

    doomboy Member

    Jun 12, 2010
    just reduce track gold bonus, like what i did here in order to justify the buffs/reworks on his other skills

    carries are simply heroes that's very significant on a team's win.
    i mean, we went through timbersaw carry or a leshrac carry before.
    in order for a hero to be a carry, his skillset must have high impact on the game, that's it, really.

    this BH i suggested have the potential to do exactly that, i mean, we know how significant just a ~100 damage nerf is on some heroes, practically stripping them from their carry roles and this BH got over 300 damage buff (well, when he's high leveled)

    and its STILL balanced, because BH is strong ONLY because of track, like srsly he's only used for his track gold...
    he can now gain SOMETHING ELSE aside from track gold increase with levels, srsly track have 150/250/350 gold bonus, this scales insanely good compared to 30/60/90/120 bonus damage from shadow walk or jinada crit

    his abilities are... fine, really.
    just scales terribly compared to track, thus is why he's used only for tracks in mid to late game (this is also why he's played as a support despite having no disables, positioning fixings (like force staff) or heals abilities)
  13. Blamagenkind

    Blamagenkind Member

    Jun 10, 2009
    You're saying carries should have high impact abilities, but your suggestion doesn't feel like it gives any high impact. He deals a lot of damage for a couple of seconds then he's useless for 9 seconds. Giving your team gold would have more impact in the game. Also, there are a lot of non-carry heroes that have high impact abilities, and sometimes crucial to victory. Initiators, counter-initiators, heroes with saves, high sustain, vision. BH is vision oriented and that all he has to offer, he has no real way of dealing damage to enemies without getting too close and then dying because he's too squishy. Timbersaw can carry because he's tanky and Leshrac has his disables, they also both deal a lot of sustained damage. Like I said, if you want to change him into a carry, remake one or two skills, don't just tweak the numbers.
  14. doomboy

    doomboy Member

    Jun 12, 2010
    the point of this rework is NOT changing a hero into a carry, but simple tweaks on a heroes ability so he can be played like he's currently, but also give him a better chance for him to carry or semi-carry the game. and in BH's case, i make him as a semi-carry, not a carry, he IS weak compared to other carries, obvs.

    these changes will make him transition from a roamer to a carry way better than he's currently, because he's lacking scaling on his damaging abilities (except for maybe jinada, with appropriate items),

    HE CAN STILL BE PLAYED LIKE BEFORE, as in, just tracking enemies from afar. and he STILL DOES give vision, and now he'll increase the damage dealt to enemies a bit more (18% damage increase isn't much, its around 33% weaker than veil for magical damage, and also weaker compared to a solar crest for physical damage, but the fact that its increasing both type of damage is VERY good during wars)

    sure, the track gold is reduced by a TON for his friends, but track gold will still increase networth swing by quite a lot compared to not tracking enemies.

    and if you're saying 'well, 7% is very low on lv 1 track' well duh, aside from increasing its cooldown, track is actually stronger than before (giving 10 more gold to his friend, and jinada activating track without mana cost nor causing it to go to cooldown is GOOD)

    giving him survivability abilities aside from the shadow walk he got now will make him way too good because of this.

    I even can say that early (before 12 minutes mark) BH is better than before. Even though before he gains track, he's pretty weakened than before (thanks to mana cost increase for shadow walk)/

    if anything, mid game BH will have quite a hard time to give the kills to his cores, because there's a pretty high chance of him killing the enemy himself in 1 shot. which would be good, as it's returning BH to his fun to play old playstyle
  15. kamukag3e

    kamukag3e Member

    Jun 11, 2009
    Forget to add they can deal hundreds of damage continuously without a break in an AoE or simply hitting more then one hero, both of which are also not prone to kiting.

    I said this, but I believe doomboy misinterpret it.
    The only carries which are in similar position as BH (prone to kiting with single target oriented) are Sven and Wraith King, all other heroes have some ways to deal with that - PA has blink strike, Life Stealer has his Rage - heroes which are single target but are not easy to kite would be mostly ranged so excluding them from the comparison at all.

    Now both WK and Sven have a disable to pin their focused target down while they kill it, BH has none so his target can easily use abilities both innate and from items to be able to escape and/or disable him, basically making him unable to get kills.

    Both of the heroes also have high durability and their DPS (not burst damage mind you), is significantly higher, they are well known to be able to chop entire team if not kited properly in few seconds - especially Sven.
    Now doomboy said that BH can buy dagger - they do as well to fix their issues, but he will still lack durability and DPS if he invest in that, while both of the heroes are fine with sinking money into mobility, because they have natural steroids for the other 2 needed attributes. Gold income and item timings is important, having to spend in Dagger delay your other items and if you are not ahead by that time - you will have even bigger problems later.

    Now I understand your obsession in BH, he is a nice hero and can transition into a more semi-carry role if his game went well (something which you do quite often). The problem I know he has is that itemizing for physical damage will make him squishy and vulnerable after he burst down one target, building bulk will make him unable to kill enemies fast - a balanced build is not as strong, because he will still be unable to kill slightly durable enemies. He lack scaling abilities unlike other carries and semi-carries.

    But I think you are forgetting his magical damage build - Dagon into E.Blade is a 1,500-2,000 damage in an instant all from safe range, this is all possible not because of his Jinada or Shadow Walk, but because of his Track ability to accumulate gold and snow ball from his first kills very hard.

    One more thing to note is that this build is once again for semi-carry, BH always had a good burst potential, but never a good DPS, which is extremely important, he can't compete with other carries and that should be put into his play-style. Changing the abilities to suit more in-the-face style of play will do more harm than good.
    There is a reason he is played mainly as roamer/support in competitive scene with items which uses his abilities and increase his contribution in a team-fight - while he is viable semi-carry in public games. It's not about his carry potential, it's about how easy it is to counter it. When much more stable heroes which are bigger threat can be countered by proper sentry placement, BH stand no chance in that regard (Slark, Clinkz, Weaver and Riki)
  16. asokaaso2

    asokaaso2 Member

    Apr 26, 2014
    btw are we talking about hard carry here?
  17. Blamagenkind

    Blamagenkind Member

    Jun 10, 2009
    Semantics. Either way, your suggestion doesn't make him a viable carry nor does it enable him to transition from roamer/ganker to carry because of his kit and the fact that he is melee. Reducing the Track gold & turning it into a Corrosive Haze/Natural Order hybrid, increasing Jinada cooldown, none of these changes will help him transition to a carry. These changes just makes him a better roaming support, you just buffed his damage. Also, as @kamukag3e said, he has no sustained damage and lacks a disable.
  18. doomboy

    doomboy Member

    Jun 12, 2010
    trust me on this one, BH, with BF, SnY, and phase, can kill heroes WAY easier and faster than slark, clinkz, riki, or weaver. and be rewarded more.

    sure, afterwards he's 'useless', after killing a hero, he is gonna be useless for a few seconds, sure. but he can still track from afar. and if you said 'well BH will also die after killing that hero, unlike clinkz, riki, slark or weaver' that IS true --but those heroes are carries to begin with.

    the point of this thing is never to change his role to a carry, as i said on the very first post : 'it feels good killing other dudes, after all... and it feels better, when you're doing it with a hero everyone thought is supposed to be a support'

    I fully know that he's still gonna be used as a shuriken and track spammer instead of a carry.

    the result of the whole rework, overall, is a BUFF, not a nerf to BH. track, his signature ability is nerfed quite a bit, yes, but BH is kinda a hero that create '4 vs 5' situation because he literally can't do jack squat but tracking and shurikening hero for a liiiitle bit of damage (really, a little bit)

    after the rework, Track deals more damage to heroes, which means he actually contribute MORE during a war. his contribution AFTER the war is WON is nerfed, however, that is also true.

    and about dagger things, as i said before, because of the buff on shadow walk, he WONT need too much damaging items. dude really, its 240 damage vs 450 damage (600 with talent), and if you do 'dagger in, then cast SW and attack' combo, its
    120 damage vs 300 damage (400 with talent), even more, actually, because of track damage amplification.

    300 extra damage IS enough for him to NOT need a lot of items to kill an enemy, damage wise, BH is hitting harder as a friggin' Sven with God Strength if they both only have Phase boots, BF and daggers at level 12 -----well, for the first 2 seconds. and yes, yes, Sven got way better survivability than BH, true. but the fact that he DOES deal MORE damage than Sven with level 2 GS is something.
    and yes, BH does deal more damage than even lina with equal level and networth within 2-3 seconds... despite BH is online again way faster than both, and he's rewarded MORE than both after killing an enemy hero.

    the 1 and only hero i see being able to outclass BH's damage output on level 12 at ~10k networth is nevermore because of his ultimate and raze.

    (btw, i'm talking about BH after my reworks, since current BH is pretty weak in term of damage output)

    trust me on this one, BH can and WILL be played as carry even on some divine games.

    this is just like a lot of ppl theorizing and saying that Bane stealing damage talent wont turn him into a carry--into for icefrog to immediately nerf that talent because it's insanely good and Bane carries are played on Immortal (previously divine with top ranks) games.

    if you said 'welp bane can nightmare someone (a good DISABLE) and kill him' then i say 'welp BH can kill someone in 2 seconds'

    srsly mates, BH on 7.07 was played as semi carry (then nerfed by Icefrog) when he got a 120 attack damage talent as a level 20 talent, even on some Divine games. yes, just a 120 attack damage talent makes him a viable carry. (his level 25 1 second jinada cooldown is actually not THAT thought of as a deciding factor for BH carry, because you need to get level 25 beforehand... he literally get semi-carry role because a simple +120 damage talent, which icefrog nerfed to +125% jinada crit almost right away)

    because i never intended for him to become an actual carry?
    and nope, it DOES HELP him to transition from a roamer/ganker to carry. though not by MUCH.

    also, he DOES have sustained damage, level 20 talent grants 15% jinada trigger chance, which is quite a lot DPS increase alongside with auto track (about 35%++ more than before the rework). plus the whole point of BH as a hero --back then-- is a burst damage carry. he IS intended to NOT have a lot of damage available to him AFTER he kills an enemy.

    but welp, he IS quite weak, even after all these buffs, that i agree...

    i'll increase the jinada trigger chance to 20%, that should enable him better.
  19. Wrooks

    Wrooks Member

    Feb 26, 2010
    you changes are more of a nerf than forming him into a carry role...

    won't you go into the heroes tab in the client and see the similarities between all carryies
  20. doomboy

    doomboy Member

    Jun 12, 2010
    remaked him again, i think i make him tad way too good now .-.

    eh, fk it.