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LC Talent: Armor or MOC?

Discussion in 'Meta-Game Discussion' started by mapdesigner, May 19, 2017 at 2:13 AM.

  1. mapdesigner

    mapdesigner Member

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    MoC seems good on paper, but I have feeling that, due to cooldown, it is not that useful anyway. the chance only seem to matter when there is low number of attacks received.

    there are 3 cases:

    1-) when LC duel near creeps: % doesnt really matter, only CD does.
    2-) LC duel carry: % doesnt matter that much if carry attacks rapidly (e.g. jug slark sven am duza and the likes)
    3-) LC duel support: % does make it easier to kill, but LC is going to win anyway and it is not needed usually.

    All in All, talent does not seem very useful. Certainly not more useful than 7 Armor.

    If talent is going to be any useful, CD need to be improved.

    thoughts? I think best one is to ditch the whole talent (I find it hard to fix as low CD is OP and just % is no benifit)
     
  2. dR

    dR Moderator Staff Member

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    Yeah but when do you Duel someone when there's a possibility you won't win? Only scenario is when you want to distract a carry, which would be late into the match, when the lifesteal (I don't even wanna call it that, it's basically a self-cast purification) is more useful than the armor. Plus it helps you farm while your Duel is down, and in terms of "which one makes Duel better", it's objectively the better choice - because it's the only offensive one, and it actually helps you win the duel, whereas +armor would just help you not lose, because it has no offensive value. Plus LC naturally carries blademail/AC and has decent base armor, so it's not a huge issue. Not saying +MoC% is the default talent on the tier, but there's nothing wrong with it.
     
  3. Oesile

    Oesile Member

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    Very simple, get MoC if you're ahead. Even if there is a cooldown, it is a very high increase in chance to hit which can really boost your DPS when you have a lot of duel damage going.

    If not, get the armor. Armor only improves your survivability, MoC improves both survivability and dps. The concept is good anyway.

    Have you tested it btw? You may feel it's not useful but it probably is.. I'd say to wait until we have more stats on the matter.
     
  4. mapdesigner

    mapdesigner Member

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    i havent tried lol

    ill do now
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2017 at 11:33 AM
  5. MortalKombat3

    MortalKombat3 Member

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    Also one should consider armor mechanics. If enemies use significant armour reductions deal deal primarily physical damage, any extra source of armour is extremely useful (because +7 armour on top of 0 armour is VERY good). On other hand, if your LC already has ~15-25 armour, and enemy dont reduce it, extra 7 armour wont matter much anyway.

    MoC talent should indeed be picked only if LC is snowballing, and going to be a carry actually. Also, it's extremely good if LC goes for Aghanim (for snowblalling LC, again).
    BTW, LC aghanim looks incredibly good for her instead of BKB, if she's snowballing. Aghanim is a 8-second BKB with decent stats, and it wont be reduced to 5 seconds eventually. Later, she may also get BKB, and it will have brand-new 10 seconds duration, extremely OP for lategame. Aghanim can even be swapped for BKB when LC runs out of slots (first you dual someone with "BKB" from aghanim, then swap it for BKB. Profit!
     
  6. Kris

    Kris Moderator Staff Member

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    The armor seems super low value. But in many games MoC is going to be wasted if you don't have BKB.

    That said I normally trust dotabuff stats about these things and armor has a +2.5% winrate which is starting to be significant. Normally it takes +4% or higher to be a clearcut choice.
     
  7. mapdesigner

    mapdesigner Member

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    I trully doubt dotabuff in this. it used to be 20 Sec respan time. does dota buff distinguish talents between patches? or mix the whole % up? lol
     
  8. MortalKombat3

    MortalKombat3 Member

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    7 armour is a normal value for lvl20 talent. Many other heroes receive 7-8 armour for lvl20.
     
  9. Kris

    Kris Moderator Staff Member

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    Last 7 days seems reliable
     
    mapdesigner likes this.
  10. IHateLeavers

    IHateLeavers Member

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    Armor is better if you're playing more of a support or against some Deso cores. In general you dont want to build armor items on core LC, even AC is subpar compared to Satanic which has a lot better synergy with your dmg.
     
  11. MortalKombat3

    MortalKombat3 Member

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    Usually, you build other items on LC. First, you want dagger, because without it, you cant hope for good duel or good mobility. Second, you want Armlet, cause it's very cost-efficient item for short fight (both DPS and defensive), where LC excels. Third, you want BM against right-click cores, so they will kill themselves during duel. Fourth, you want BKB (or Aghanim, at least), so enemy wont be able to "cheaply" lock you during duel or nuke to death with spells. Fifth, you want Heaven's Halberd because enemies will buy Linkens, HH also provides HP and evasion, along with damage, and can be used to lock enemy carry too. And only in late-late game, LC can even think about buying items like AC or Satanic....
     
  12. IHateLeavers

    IHateLeavers Member

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    Not really. Everything can work depending on situation. You can buy lothar + deso and split push with some ganks once in a while. Trust me, LC with lot's of dmg + Deso can take towers very quickly.

    Dagger is no doubt great item, but it doesnt offer dmg to solo full HP enemies on your own, and if your teammates are slow pokes you will only waste your time.

    You can also start with midas, as LC benefit from fast lvl25 a lot more than most other heroes, though it's far from optimal after recent jungle nerf and it will put your team at disadvantage for nearly 15min, so take in to consideration if enemy team will push early or you have time to afk farm.
     
  13. MortalKombat3

    MortalKombat3 Member

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    Shadow Blade is too "slow" for teamfights (if you dont have dagger as well), and too easily counterable (enemies will just team up and throw a sentry under feet. Maybe, it will work against noobs, but everything will work against noobs so it isnt a valid argument.
    Midas is valid, but quite situational, usually for games where LC is forced to farm instead of fighting...