1. Hello and welcome to the brand new home for PlayDota!
    Please read through our Welcome thread to see what's new!
    Dismiss Notice

I was very wrong about my conceptual understanding of dota

Discussion in 'Dota Chat' started by vorsybl, May 4, 2018.

  1. vorsybl

    vorsybl Member

    1,183
    41
    48
    Mar 17, 2015
    Until about a month ago, for about a decade, I focused on "counters." I'd wait for last pick (the button), look up what i saw in the enemy draft, then pick a counter to them. That didn't get anywhere. I calibrated at 2,500 mmr when ranked was released on the old dota 2 client. I've never gotten passed that point, and for good reason. The players I was playing with at that time, before ranked was released, were good players, and it's very possible the wins I accrued with them in unranked, contributed to a much higher rating than really.

    For the last 3 weeks, I've played T7 battlecup, which is 4k-5k average if I understand correctly. I haven't been able to get passed the first match, the games are incredibly difficult, in terms of acquiring farm.

    Now, I admit it, I accept it, and I understand it, I'm very bad at the game still. I'm only just starting to understand the mistakes. But, I still play to get team c4 together, originated in nyc. I still play to get my stream recording and showing viewers the dopeness of high rated gameplay, casting, and teamwork. Because it's worth watching.

    Now, the question I have is I guess, how do I make it so that I can draft impeccably? Even in solo pubs, how do I always make the right last pick? I've always lied to myself that the amount of time and "Experience" i gained was enough to lead me in the right direction, but tbh I have no idea what I should be thinking about or looking for.

    Right now, as far as drafting goes my understanding is that there are ~ 20 heros in each position (1-5), and each of those people have intriciate capabilities. I mean down to the smallest details, like I was reading the wiki on lich earlier, and yes, I know he has chain frost, sacrifice, frost nova, and frost armor. What I didn't think about, was oh shit, the fact that he can deny ranged creeps, will mean that whatever lane im in against him is gonna be shit, cuz the creeps will always be close to their side. So if I know that, then I should be picking a specific offlaner that will be able to farm that wave without dying so close to the tower, you see.

    Now, the only thing I can be sure of, is what each hero does. And I mean their 3 abilities, and ultimate. After that, I think it's safe to say I'm clueless.

    Ultimately, in higher rating games, and tournaments, you can't just be good with one guy. Versatility is huge for me in dota, and i think the versatile player who can play all his pool @ 90% or better, makes him more lethal than his opponent who only can do the same with a few.

    Or correct me if im wrong, please.

    If I continue to play after today, I don't want to waste time any more. Thanks. I'm playing dota to create my team, to compete and win, and stream that journey on twitch. At the end of all this, dota should be monetized at least slightly, and I'll have accomplished my goal, and will be able to move on to something bigger, like a career
     
    Daddy Sven likes this.
  2. ManOnTheCan

    ManOnTheCan Member

    4,511
    447
    83
    Aug 18, 2013
    Countering is fundamentally a reactive strategy. They pick X hero, you counter with Y hero. They go with strategy A, you counter with B. You build your hero with items C, D, E in order to shut down the enemy.

    The problem is you are playing not to lose, instead of playing to win. What if instead of X hero being used with strategy A, they use it with strategy F? You have maybe a few minutes at most to reactive with strategy G. And maybe you can't because you should have picked hero Z to counter this strategy.

    Rather, pick your strategy, say H, and play to your strengths.
     
    Daddy Sven likes this.
  3. vorsybl

    vorsybl Member

    1,183
    41
    48
    Mar 17, 2015
    Damn bro, sorry for this thread. I'm too old to play professionally
     
  4. ManOnTheCan

    ManOnTheCan Member

    4,511
    447
    83
    Aug 18, 2013
    Better to have a career that gives you a steady in come for the next 40 years. Then play video games to relax.
     
  5. Leadblast

    Leadblast Member

    5,024
    62
    48
    May 31, 2010
    You have to know counterpicks, but chances are, unless the whole other team are retards and pick heroes that do and play roughly the same, you can't counter them all. What you're supposed to do if you're going first or second pick is pick a strong hero that has only a very few counters after banning one of them. Like how currently I am going for Weaver as a first pick, so I nominate Bloodseeker for ban. If I succeeded with the ban, I'll go ahead and pick Weaver asap. If I couldn't ban Blood, then I'll start thinking of other heroes. At this point, chances are I will pick a versatile hero like QoP which basically has no definite counters. (Because if they pick physical damage dealers I buy Ghost Scepter, if they pick silencers or such I will farm Euls to dispel their silence, so I am covered). Etc.

    This goes for the first pick or sometimes second pick to an extent. Past that point I will just pick whatever the team needs.

    Basically if you're aiming for the first pick, if you want a strong hero you have to previously ban the biggest counter that this hero has. If you fail to get that ban, then change to a versatile pick that's much harder to counter.

    It goes without saying that you should stay the heck away from heroes that are really really EASY to counter. Again, as example I'm just avoiding Legion Commander in my ranked games for the most part. As much as I like LC, I can't hide the fact that she has 2 huge flaws that make her pretty much non suited for ranked, specially at lower brackets. And one of those is the fact she has like a bazillion counterpicks: Omni, Abaddon, Dazzle, Wyvern, and most lineups with an abundant amount of disables. Huge tanks with Blademail like Axe. Or DK. Or Wraith King who can even give you a Duel and kill you in return. Carries that can out-DPS you very early like Ursa or Troll or Huskar (doesn't matter that Blademail of yours, they can rush lifesteal to sustain themselves against their own damage). Viper kites you like hell. Common Linken's carriers like Weaver or Morph. Etc etc etc.

    You might as well consider LC a death trap in lower brackets. Whichever team picks her has huge chances of losing. My last ranked match, I tried to ban Bloodseeker as usual, but I failed to ban him, and the first pick in the game went to the enemy team. Some guy there picked LC, I immediately picked WK. Unfortunately my team wasn't very good either, my SF ally played like crap, and he lost the mid lane to a fucking Bloodseeker (and feeded like hardcore for the whole match, and the only thing he ever tried to do was farm an Euls to set up his Requiem, and he didn't even get close to the target hero after cycloning). We also had a Techies because the guy who picked him was a huge idiot who started planting mass mines only in the latter half of the match, we also had a Juggernaut, and an Ursa who was the only semi-decent player other than me. The other team had a Troll, a Bloodseeker, the aforementioned LC, an AM (who intended to counterpick me) and a WR. In the end we barely turned around, mainly because their LC had disconnected and Techies and me were defending the remains of our base (pretty much in the shambles) with the ocassional help from the Ursa. The Juggernaut and especially the SF were mostly feeders. But somehow we turned it around after almost losing. The difficulty came from the fact that 1) SF was a total moron 2) the Techies guy only started playing seriously in the last half of the match and 3) Ursa didn't know how to counter AM (who had farmed a Rapier at some point in the late game) I started horribly, but could get better after hitting the level 15 talent for the no manacost Rez. With that, and a Blademail, the AM wasn't a big deal for me, but he just kept murdering Ursa mercilessly. I also made the mistake of farming an Aghas for teamfights but in the end that was useless compared to an old fashioned Abyssal. (Plus the fact that WK Agha's no longer counters Duel)
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2018
  6. Abdulink

    Abdulink Member

    3,615
    21
    38
    Aug 8, 2010
    I think you like Void. Just pick and get good with him and you should easily hit 4.5k-5k.
     
  7. vorsybl

    vorsybl Member

    1,183
    41
    48
    Mar 17, 2015
    Irissia told me this earlier today, which has got me seriously thinking about what I'm going to do moving forward. She's this really cute 32 year old from canada, married with a daughter. Peak mmr 1800.

    The thing is, yes, dota is a trip, and yes, it's fun to play, but it's not worth my time being almost 30 years old. I'm really only playing still to monetize it.

    Void is a fucking boss. He arguably one of the best ultimates in the game, time walk and bash are by far my favorite abilities in dota.

    And thanks for the support. It's a lot to juggle with. Right now it's safe to say I need a job asap and then i can go from there.
     
  8. Daddy Sven

    Daddy Sven Moderator Staff Member

    23,695
    800
    113
    Jun 22, 2010
    I don't have dota installed so I sadly cannot analyze your games. But in order to really get good, you must understand the core of the game and never loose focus. Kills mean shit, farm means shit, they are mere factors which give you gold and XP advantage, but don't necessarily win you a game. So long as you destroy the enemy ancient effectively, you are golden.

    And in order to learn this skill the easy and fast way, is to go through the very old school training routines. Their downside is that they're boring and repetitive until you understand and feel their benefit.


    One last thing. Ignore metas. They are the literal bane of struggling players. The only thing they do is narrow your view on how to achieve a victory.
     
    MrFrank likes this.
  9. Haasva

    Haasva Member

    2,547
    108
    63
    Dec 26, 2011
    Of course because they are op broken abilities xDD
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2018
  10. Leadblast

    Leadblast Member

    5,024
    62
    48
    May 31, 2010
    I just won a ranked game today as Weaver, by applying the so called rat doto tactics.

    I rushed Linken's first and Travels second. Used the Travels to push multiple lanes in quick succession and farm myself up while at it. My teammates were all dying but I managed to destroy their bottom raxes eventually and that kinda sealed their fate.

    The final score was something like 45-25 with the enemy team having the 45 kills but still we won by pure ratting and attrition tactics. The enemy team was apparently using deathball tactics. It worked for them against my teammates but not so against me (I died only once in the entire match).

    Been on a little win streak in ranked games now... like 7 or 8 ranked wins in a row. I used Bloodseeker twice today (both times to counterpick a Slark). Rushed Blademail, bugger could do nothing but teleport away, and then we feasted on his teammates. I don't remember having this fun in Dota since a good while ago
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2018
    Daddy Sven likes this.
  11. RNGeezus

    RNGeezus Member

    162
    19
    18
    Nov 18, 2014
    There comes a point where you will get matched with someone that knows all of his hero's strengths and weaknesses and has played games and knows what to expect at all stages of the game. Countering is only as effective as your positioning in-game. If you counter your enemy for the first 10 minutes of the game, congrats, you won your lane! But if you don't know how to play the remaining of the game, you will still lose. I personally only play ember spirit, templar assassin, and storm spirit because I find all other heroes rather boring (i've played this game a lot). I'm comfortable with those heroes in all situations, I know how to play from behind, I know how to play when I'm ahead and I know how to abuse my enemy's lack of knowledge of my potential to surprise them and catch them off-guard. Doing what your enemy expects least is a good way to get the upper-hand. If you make the game less predictable for them, and more predictable for you, you have the game under your control.


    You want to get in your enemy's head and make them afraid to farm because you know where they are at all times in the game, even when they are not showing. Lot's of dota comes down to intuition and trusting your gut. Half the time I know where enemies are at when I don't even have vision of them.

    Being able to survive is arguably the most important aspect of the game. If you can't catch me, it doesn't matter if you are 6 slotted, I'm dancing around you and there's nothing you can do about it.

    For instance, lots of times when i pick TA, people pick viper. Now to most people this seems like viper should win the lane, in reality, most of those vipers are baddies trying hard to counterpick and actually can't lane for shit.
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2018
    MrFrank and Daddy Sven like this.
  12. Daddy Sven

    Daddy Sven Moderator Staff Member

    23,695
    800
    113
    Jun 22, 2010
    That's very true. Knowing your match ups and playing accordingly is a lot more effective than just counter picking. I remember back in 6.82 (pre charge based shrapnel) I used to have a 1/9 match up as Sniper vs a Shadow Fiend on mid lane. After poking at different builds and strategies, I managed to turn it into a 5/5 match up, where my goal would be to destroy mid tower asap. My CS was of course still lower, however the tower gold and lane advantage certainly made up for it.
     
    RNGeezus likes this.
  13. Leadblast

    Leadblast Member

    5,024
    62
    48
    May 31, 2010
    This is not countering in the proper sense of the word. If you won your lane in the match's first 10 minutes, you just have laned well, you just won your lane, nothing more, nothing less. You most certainly have not won the game yet. You probably can't even start snowballing and carrying your team yet because you still need to farm and complete your Agha's or whatever other stuff you need.

    Again, that's more related to the power spikes for each different hero than to what countering really means.

    Not quite true. With certain heroes like Storm you can dance around the enemy all you want, but if the enemy is already six-slotted if you don't have backup you will lose anyway. Storm vs PA, both six slotted, both level 25. PA will win every time, doesn't matter what items Storm goes for. But because the situation is very different on the early game, actually neither hero naturally counters the other.

    Viper is not the hardest counter to TA there is. He is a single target hero by nature. But Pudge can fuck TA up big time, and she can't do shit.
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2018
    RNGeezus likes this.
  14. kamukag3e

    kamukag3e Member

    3,764
    435
    83
    Jun 11, 2009
    @RNGeezus:
    I agree with your statement, but not about the reasons - you are not supposed to 'trust your gut feelings', you get to that point after a lot of games with that hero, facing those 'counters' multiple times and on the back of 'experience' or 'trails and errors' you get to the point where you know your way around said match-ups.

    Because I like to analyze my games, tend to get there really fast - and because I'm lazy as fuck - I play 'boring' heroes such as WK and Medusa, plenty of times being countered by AM, PL, Invoker, Lion and whatnot, most of the times I feel really comfortable in that match up, just have to itemize properly and play around it.
     
    RNGeezus likes this.
  15. Blarrg

    Blarrg Member

    10,822
    594
    113
    Jun 12, 2009
    Its on a spectrum. The lower skill you are the less counterpicks should matter. What you should be focusing on as a player is your mechanical skill and your execution. As you increase in rank, draft and strategy become increasingly more important. Your draft can very easily completely lose you the game just because someone decided to last pick Bristleback for no reason.
     
    MrFrank likes this.