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how do I convince my team to stop AM in 3k bracket

Discussion in 'Dota Chat' started by 618, Dec 5, 2017.

  1. 618

    618 Member

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    I think i have a 10% winrate vs AM. I can't contest vs trilanes as a solo offlane, so i tell my team we need to gank him post laning stage or just push early and they refuse either option and proceed to just gank the enemy's supports and offlaner until minute 30 and by then AM is already farmed and destroys us and we lose an easy game.


    How does one convince them effectively, because i've reached the point where I just insta ban am in my games.
     
  2. flamegod0

    flamegod0 Member

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    What is your usual position sir?
     
  3. 618

    618 Member

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    Either 3 or 4/roam. Used to play mid but I was bad at CS and i got tired of supporting camping mid. I always preferred it to be a 1v1 lane.
     
  4. kamukag3e

    kamukag3e Member

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    Early game is really easy to play versus three-lane, especially sub 3k bracket where the supports do nothing but leech experience, you just have to be annoying and make them stay in the lane and don't even get close to them so you are not disabled.

    Not dying, getting every bit of experience and keeping their supports around you is enough.
    AM will have some farm, but really low levels and the moment you peak with your experience under your tower (which he will inevitably push to) start contesting him last-hits and even kills.

    There is a good window of opportunity to do so - AM requires at least 14-16 minutes if he is skilled to farm his BF, so even if you are behind for the first 6-8 minutes, you can still get ahead after that and kill him or delay his farm afterwards and significantly skewer his timing, opening the opportunity to do so later as well.



    A good physical damage is really good vs AM, even with great early game (if you did not manage to shut him down) he is susceptible to physical damage burst until he finishes his Manta (and then he is still squishy, just hard to prevent him from fleeing).

    Magical damage on the other hand, while very strong versus other heroes is completely ineffective against him.

    So outside of delaying his impact by shutting him down (which is not that hard) - physical damage.

    Heroes would have to be fast/mobile and with some disable - my advice is to pick WR and Slardar as hard-lane heroes or Spirit Breaker, Rikimary as roamers. Being able to prevent his blink for few seconds and burst him down as much as you can is easy way to control his 'freedom' of farming and greatly reduce his farming speed whole game long, making him scared to even show himself and resort to neutrals (which is way slower way of rising even if he can clear them fast).


    Into the late-game, do not allow the creeps to pass the middle point (river), as AM split-pushing is really fast - so look at your mini-map and push those lanes before they reach near your towers.
     
  5. mapdesigner

    mapdesigner Member

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    im actually convinced. I cant stop him though, he is OP.
     
  6. kamukag3e

    kamukag3e Member

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    @mapdesigner:
    Well, AM as with any other hard (very late-game oriented - greedy) carries is hard to deal with once given his proper circumstances to develop - that's the reason they are used this role.

    To counter it you should first understand it and analyze weaknesses to exploit them.

    1) Hard carries are usually very weak in the very early game:
    Spectre, AM, Alchemist etc. all are especially vulnerable to high pressure and can't actually fight at levels 1-5 at all on equal grounds. With anyone and especially if the enemy is considered especially strong in those levels.
    To exploit that, pick heroes which are decent later, but are especially strong in the early game (exemplary heroes are Timbersaw and Clockwerk).

    2) Hard carries need a line-up which can hold on until their time to shine has come:
    Because those heroes mentioned (Spectre, AM, Alchemist etc.) can't actually participate in fights (if they do, it's a mistake and you should win fights or even being even is OK, if after that they are not able to continue farming but instead have to return to their base to refill), you should use that as a leverage.

    If their team is filled with few heroes not being able to fight, you should take objectives (outer towers) in quite succession and force fights continually - because fighting 5:4 is favorable enough, but fighting 5:3 is even more beneficial and can make your whole team snow-ball and be able to close the game before the hard carry manage to get big.

    3) Hard carries need space:
    Aside from bad early game and not being able to participate in fights they also need space to farm.
    Pretty sure you have the experience of being completely close in small portion of the maps and every time you or your carry goes somewhere to farm - he is ganged - so killed or at least prevented from being able to acquire gold.

    You can do that too. It's not hard - analyze replays and see what's the big thing which happens on the map.
    All Tier 1 towers should be killed, as they give the most map-control, then 2 observer wards would be enough to give you and your team the little information of 'where' the enemy carry is going and what part of his team is nearby - then intercept, attempt to kill or get another objective nearby so he will still feel threaten and lose time to farm moving away.


    Proper game is played mostly on the mini-map and not actually on your big screen when you are playing or countering hard-carries, which need 25-30 minutes of free farm. And if you are not winning against team of 4 for 30 minutes, why do you think you deserve to win versus the same team but with 5 heroes ?
     
  7. Abstract.Raze

    Abstract.Raze Member

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    You must have at least 1 good nuker in your team to debunk the true AM and disappear his illusions so fast as possible whenever he activates his Manta, otherwise, he's going to purge mana really fast ending with the death, then you must have a strong physical damage dealer like Ursa, PA,(one melee hero must be there), I recommend a second physical damage dealer(ranged), like SF, Viper, Clinkz, Drow, etc....
    AoE disablers are very important as well, like Tider Hunter, Magnus, Enigma, just saying so because if AM buys aganim, it's not good for disablers like Lion, Rashta,CM,etc..., because they would need BKB in order AM's aganim doesn't work.
     
  8. vorsybl

    vorsybl Member

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    You don't. This would require communication, cooperation, and awareness, things non existent in the dogshit tiers of rank. Your best bet is to keep your fingers crossed and pray God comes down from heaven and grants you a miracle.
     
  9. 618

    618 Member

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    I mean, 3k isn't that dogshit. It's probably 60th percentile, i mean it is very possible to carry 1.5k mmr tbh, I went from 1.5k to 1.9k in my first year of playing, and more recently, 1.9k to 3.1k in about 2 months
     
  10. ManOnTheCan

    ManOnTheCan Member

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    Pick shadow demon and use AM illusions to kill his team.
     
  11. kamukag3e

    kamukag3e Member

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    @618:
    Don't mind him, he is a bit disappointed by his games and teammates.

    About the percentage wise brackets and general (not on thread topic):
    Won't say any bracket is 'dogshit', I won't consider 3,000 to be high. The estimated average is around 2,800 which would mean that between 2,500 and 3,200 is still very near the 50%.
    Keep in mind that 60% in any field is really bad, because most (the majority of) players tend not to play seriously, nor do they get the basics.
    Above 4,000 (or when you get to 10% of the player-base) they have the basics and start actually playing the game properly without significant lack of knowledge.

    In therms of wealth (as an example) because the distribution is quite similar and in all aspects of average - because only very few are in favorable spot or are reaching the top.
    The income groups are defined as follows (percentage of world population).
    The poor live on $2 or less, (15%)
    low income on $2.01-10, (56%)
    middle income on $10.01-20,(13%)
    upper-middle income on $20.01-50 (9%)
    high income on more than $50 (7%)

    This is a 'daily wage', data from 2011.
    So in therms of wealth, being born in developed country automatically move you to the top 40% and if you are an adult in there (working for more than the minimum salary), moving directly to the top 15%.

    In DotA is completely the same, if you have your basics right, you will be moved directly to the top 15-10% of the players.

    @ManOnTheCan:
    Actually because of your comment I recall that Terroblade have no issues dealing with AM, his Q is making AM cry.
     
  12. justsightseeing

    justsightseeing Member

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    since mostly play supp, imo, your best bet are disruptor (aoe silence and glimpse vs blink) and lion (good disable and manadrain vs illusion).

    disruptor can gank am as long as you hit your first thunderstrike and will be able to prevent his blink at mid game untill he buy BKB which is suboptimal for AM

    lion can hex and stun.. manadrain esp with 4sec cd and possibility to hit 2+ with his lv 20 talent prevent him to produce illusion. also aoe hex.. his unattended illusion is like free gold for lion..

    that as long as you able to pressure AM good enough in lane for your carries to snowball..
     
  13. 618

    618 Member

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    I'm a big fan of the word dogshit, I use the word to describe something horrible, like fucking terrible. Hence why I said it isn't that dogshit.


    tfw just average at a game i've been playing since 2014 :(
     
  14. kamukag3e

    kamukag3e Member

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    @618:
    Being average is not a bad thing, especially if you have your fun meanwhile.

    Not everyone put effort to improve significantly.
    I personally consider myself one who love to challenge himself or in other words competitive to some extend.
    When I start doing something (anything), usually start with learning everything for it in advance from different sources and try to get 'how' and 'why' the most successful/good people in that sphere are doing it - then try to mimic, find the reason etc.

    While doing that my performance is usually quite high from the get go, but that goes hand-in-hand with the fact that I can spend a whole week in learning just the theory behind it.

    As an example, the most recent game I've played (aside of DotA), was "the banner saga". Played just 3 games and didn't actually enjoy it - but at the start I though it was promising and spend around 10 hours learning all about the game.
    In all of the 3 games I easily dominate my enemies (other new players), because they were nearly clueless what to do.

    So investing a lot of time is also required so you can improve. A lot of people consider playing 500, 1,000, 2,000 or 5,000 games of DotA to be a lot - I have all-in-all 2,000 games since I started, yet manage to climb considerably high just because I use quite a lot of my games to learn the game, where a lot of the players just tend to enjoy them.

    You can see how Day9 learns DotA, and his attitude - he play with the idea to learn, he did not actually enjoy the game and he really easy climb up the ladder and increase his skills. Then again - when he play with friends, he barely learn anything but instead have fun. The ratio of games which you use to improve and have fun is different - if you enjoy the learning process it's easier to dedicate the time, if you just enjoy wasting time and having fun - you won't improve that fast at the game.
     
  15. 618

    618 Member

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    I've always been a, improve as you play, fun comes first kinda player. Never cared to practice motor skills before games, never cared to check replays, never cared to play or main a single hero. I always enjoyed playing multiple heroes.
     
  16. invul_nerable

    invul_nerable Member

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    It is actually easy to stop AM if you know what you are doing, I think Kamu already elaborated everything and I will re-emphasize it because it my strategy defeating AM, and basically this goes to every game where there is an ultra-hard carry with em. End the game early.

    By that, I mean, pressure AM lane and gang up to make an all out push in all of the lanes, AM is actually the worst hero to face an early-mid game aggression because he only does one thing, right-click. Which makes him very bad at teamfights. Atleast Spec can help via illusions and Spectral dagger, AM does nothing of that.
     
  17. Oesile

    Oesile Member

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    I agree. All out aggression and towerpush is the best way to deal with him- for the love of god don't just keep chasing after AM for 20 minutes to keep ganking him. Instead of trying to catch a slippery hero, make it so he can't farm by pushing down towers and warding their jungle. Once you've got map control they are screwed.
     
    invul_nerable likes this.
  18. mapdesigner

    mapdesigner Member

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    Hey OP, if you convinced you team but no one had any stun except 1 lvl 1 frost bite and inwoker cold snap.

    So what u gunna do then?

    Hes just gunna blink away.

    So convincing them isnt the end. You still need a lot more and if he farms linken aghs then he cant die
     
  19. 618

    618 Member

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    Well it's actually fairly simple, if you get him low enough to leave the lane or stop farming, that creates enough space for us to push. Even if he doesn't die, every second he doesn't get a last hit he's losing GPM.
     
  20. Oesile

    Oesile Member

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    In this case, ignore anti-mage entirely and push down towers. He can run away from you, but he can't fight. Win the 5v4 teamfights and get map control- once you've taken all the t1 towers, even if AM keeps farming like a madman, the rest of the enemy team will be starved, and your team will have a lot of resources due to having more areas on the map to farm, towergold and momentum advantage over the enemy team.