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HotD nerfs?

Discussion in 'Meta-Game Discussion' started by ManOnTheCan, Jan 11, 2017.

  1. ManOnTheCan

    ManOnTheCan Member

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    It's a little amusing, a lot of people dismissed the new HotD as being trash since they removed the lifesteal and armor. Now everyone is picking it up because the auras are good for every- farming, pushing, early game fighting, etc etc.

    I like the item a lot, personally. However, I agree that it gives a bit too much value since everyone is running around with a superfast creep now.

    I would suggest nerfing the move speed of the creep, and maybe the auras.
     
  2. ark-eXodia

    ark-eXodia Member

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    Yep, now it's the new drum

    stats, attack speed , attack speed aura , hp regen, creep dominating

    it gonna nerfed to shit like drum, slowly in every single patch
     
    Redeemed A.I. likes this.
  3. Combaticus

    Combaticus Member

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    I'd say it's hardly trash, just filled a different need. It's crazy how much good stats it gives for the price alone, not even considering the ability. Will probably get nerfed.

    I will miss the old HotD though. Lifesteal+armor+regen all in one was so strong.
     
  4. terrorbringer

    terrorbringer Member

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    They will add the manacost back with a higher amount.That should do the job.
     
    Daddy Sven likes this.
  5. Leadblast

    Leadblast Member

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    They killed this item.

    Yeah, anyone who prefers this over Vlads/Drums must be a consummate idiot. Auras? Who cares. It's not like we didn't have early aura items already.

    but I reckon the community is getting fed with tards.
     
  6. Daddy Sven

    Daddy Sven Moderator Staff Member

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    I'm seeing a lot of people getting it over drums and for a good reason actually. You loose some mobility, however heroes with good innate MS benefit from an additional 13 attack speed and 8 health regen on top of being able to dominate a creep. If MS is a problem, dominate a Kobold Foreman and keep it nearby. You'll be actually getting more MS that way.
     
  7. Leadblast

    Leadblast Member

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    Nah, even Luna probably works better with Vlads now.

    there are a few problems with your theorycraft.
    First, you might not be lucky enough to find a kobold for the aura. Second, the enemy can just kill your creep.

    the reason old HotD was better was because carries could use it for farming/stacking/scouting Rosh etc. not so much for walking around and fighting with an additional aura.
    Carries.
    Carries like Luna or Sven, who are meant to farm more btw.
     
  8. Kris

    Kris Moderator Staff Member

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    Not giving the creep auto 1400 HP or 425 MS would go a long way to fixing the problems. Balance the creeps in the camps.

    Purge creep also needs at least a 2sec longer cooldown.
     
  9. FightFightFight

    FightFightFight Member

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    New HotD has the same capabilities for stacking, scouting, split farming as previous one. What was really changed is that instead of relatively useless lifesteal and armor new one gives stats and flat regen which is way better for survival in early game, and increased movespeed of creeps gives better chance to meaningfully use them in fights.

    If you are playing ricing Luna, Vlads does jack shit for you (except for tanking neutrals with lifesteal). You are alone in the woods, and auras are wasted. HotD allows you to spot incoming gank, stack, send Troll creep push out the lane, send Alpha Wolf to help you allies fighting while main hero is right-clicking neutrals. Extra HP from stats is definitely better to survive gank then lifesteal and armor on a hero with low starting strength.
     
  10. Oesile

    Oesile Member

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    This is what needs to happen, Chen's creeps are way slower and still useful, and having racecar creeps is pretty broken.

    The creeps have 1400 hp they are very beefy. Also, you can just get a new one. Centaurs are great, Tomato Smashers are strong and give attack speed, Harpy's have 1800 night vision making you see ganks coming as if it were daytime (and can even scout for you), Kobolds give neat MS, Troll Summoners have an instant root, Satyr Banishers have the most broken purge in the game, and effectively replaces old diffusal for removing debuffs on yourself or allies. The Ogre gives a ton of armor and the Alpha Wolf has one of the strongest auras in the game.

    Yeah, but HotD helps you farm faster, you can use any creep to tank and just get a new one later, or stack. And it gives really good stats, and is built from a headdress which is an item that gives you more sustainability than the old mask of death.
    I don't know, 30% extra damage from the Alpha wolf is really strong. Heavily outclasses vlads.

    I mean this item made Dark Seer a first pick/ban hero, and I see a helm of the dom every pro game. It's just too good.
     
  11. Leadblast

    Leadblast Member

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    "Ricing Luna" was basically the only way to play Luna, and still is. One of her advantages was eating a bunch of stacked ancient neutrals for big gold, and same goes (or rather, went) for Sven. Yes, stacking with the current HotD is still possible, but without the damage, armor & lifesteal, you're gonna require a combination of Morbid Mask and some other items that will take additional slots. Making the process much slower and more cumbersome in the end.

    You also had other carries who went for a relatively early Roshan like Ursa, Troll Warlord, carry WR and a few others. You can't be serious to tell me that lifesteal and attack damage are useless for them. Neither of those heroes could use attack speed (even more than what their skills already give them) or passive HP regen, but they DO use attack damage and lifesteal. For them, you would use a varying range of dominated neutrals, not just the alpha wolf. Frost Ogre's ice armor deserves special mention there.

    it seems to me that the only reason you want the new HotD for is to grab an alpha wolf and get both an attack speed aura and an attack damage one as well - to make it worth the gold/slot wasted on it rather than an old yet effective Vlads/Drums. But the old HotD was much better than that.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2017
  12. FightFightFight

    FightFightFight Member

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    yeah, clearing ancient stacks or soloing Roshan is harder w/out lifesteal. but HotD is not only about that. neutrals running at the speed of sound are quite strong with their abilities. lifesteal is good, but only in late game when you have tons of damage and BKB. in early game you can get more from flat regen

    heroes like Troll and Ursa sholdn't really get HotD. they can't reach good farm speed anyway, and it delays more important items. naked lifesteal mask works fine.
     
  13. Oesile

    Oesile Member

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    Or the new Mask of Madness.
    But yeah they might want HotD right now anyway because a 425 movementspeed 1400 hp creep is just too good. Imagine getting a Troll or a Centaur for Ursa; in 2 seconds Ursa he'll rip anyone to shreds, or with a Kobold + Phase + maybe a wind lace it'll be like being hasted all the time. Good luck kiting that.
    Phase, Mask, HotD, Blink seems pretty solid for fuzzy wuzzy imo. Just get a raindrop or magic stick for mana and you're set.
     
  14. Hyperion1O1

    Hyperion1O1 Member

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    You have a 1400 HP creep, you can just have the creep tanking first for a few seconds and your Glaives will shred the stacks.
     
  15. Leadblast

    Leadblast Member

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    I tried Morbid Mask alone on Ursa for early Roshan purposes, it's not enough. As I can tell, Ursa players have returned to the Vlads Ursa days when Fury Swipes was an orb effect. But with the old HotD it was a piece of cake to get an aegis as early as level 6~7. Now Ursa takes a little more as both the Morbid Mask itself and the Vlads are more expensive. Maybe because of the changes to Roshan as well.
     
  16. FightFightFight

    FightFightFight Member

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    if Vlads works, Mask + Basilius Ring should work too
     
  17. BornFromAGrave

    BornFromAGrave Member

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    Stacking creeps is one of the few things left now for a supp. IMO its good that the most versatile utility item is more or less a wasted slot on most carries. It was so good that HotD was upgraded in very rare cases and usually not before minute 60.
     
  18. Leadblast

    Leadblast Member

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    Of course not. It's the full Vlads what makes the trick. Vlads is not just "Morbid Mask + Basilius Ring".

    Why don't you try it yourself? althought this may also be due to the fact that Roshan is tougher than before.

    I dunno, maybe I should put both items' benefits to put them in perspective? Maybe people just forgot exactly what Vlads and HotD gives.

    Vlads gives:
    +2 all stats
    auras:
    +3 HP/s
    +0.8 MP/s
    +4 armor
    +15% attack damage
    +15% melee lifesteal, +10% ranged lifesteal

    HotD gives:
    +6 all stats
    +10 IAS
    auras:
    +8 HP/s
    +10 IAS
    --> dominated neutral creep (one of the following)
    alpha wolf +30% attack damage
    wildwing ripper +3 armor
    hellbear smasher +15 IAS

    so basically, for auras, Vlads gives +4 armor, +3 HP/s, lifesteal, and 15% damage.
    HotD gives only +8 HP/s, +10 IAS and either +30% damage, +3 armor or +15 more IAS.

    you got to admit that the Vlads helps creeps/summons tank better because of the armor. Vlads' HP/s + lifesteal must be roughly on par with HotD's HP/s, maybe a little less, or maybe a little more, I didn't bother calculating the actual numbers.

    Ditto for the 15% damage aura vs +10 IAS aura. Which one is better? both damage and IAS have their merits when it comes to push. Now, if you managed to grab an alpha wolf with HotD, that would be quite the advantage (30% damage + 10 IAS vs only +15% damage from Vlads) but what are the odds of finding an alpha wolf in the medium camps?
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2017
  19. FightFightFight

    FightFightFight Member

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    More precisely, QB+Stout+RoB+Mask. It *does* indeed allow Ursa to solo Rosh at level 7 w/out going into dangerously low HP. No idea what you were trying that it didn't worked.

    Yeah... It's Mask+Basilius Ring + Headress, what a difference.
     
  20. JDF8

    JDF8 Member

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    you can rosh with just morbid at level 6 at the latest