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Glimmer Cape on Drow and Sniper

Discussion in 'Meta-Game Discussion' started by kamukag3e, Jul 5, 2018.

  1. kamukag3e

    kamukag3e Member

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    I usually look at Glimmer's Cape as support protective item, but it's still decent pick as 'poor man's Shadow Blade'. Cheaper so comes faster and grants similar same attack speed boost but give spell resist instead of damage and invisibility on different mechanics.

    It can't be upgraded into Silver Edge, which sometimes is crucial when facing specific heroes that the Break effect really help shredding them (Bristle, Specter and Phantom Assassin).

    So now - why on those two heroes in specific ?
    Well while being carries both of them have the need of distance and sometimes Hurricane Pike alone couldn't cut it, then you have some heroes bursting them down from range (Skywrath comes to mind) where glimmer really shines.
    But why not Shadow Blade - the item is good and all, but sometimes you need the invisibility ASAP and the spell resistance is crucial part of the surviving the clashes.

    And the-e-en, we have the cooldown reduction talents. In the case of Drow it's a bit later, but once reached a down-time of ... 2 seconds and basically permanent invisibility is hilarious in a lot of cases while Sniper have the talent much earlier and makes the down-time to 5.5 seconds.
    While not being as strong as Shadow Blade on the offence, it's still superior defensive item for both of them, especially coupled with Force Staff (and Drow's Gush), the utility that item provides is ridiculous.

    What do you think and do anyone feel courageous enough to try it ?
     
  2. ManOnTheCan

    ManOnTheCan Member

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    I don't like it, it's a purely defensive item which doesn't help your carry ability except for a marginal bonus to attack speed.

    If sniper gets jumped, he won't be able to survive whether he has glimmer or not, unless you're somehow against opponents who don't buy detection.

    I don't like shadow blade on sniper either.
     
  3. kamukag3e

    kamukag3e Member

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    @ManOnTheCan:
    My point is not rushing it which sometimes can be done but then you are probably having very bad game and will lose most likely.
    Buying it when Hurricane Pike is not enough to save you - which usually indicates late-game and in the late-game carries tend to not have slots for detection while supports being far away (from Sniper and Drow in specific).

    During a fight, having that invisibility nearly permanently makes you hard to deal with 1-on-1 from the other carry unless some shit like Tinker with Vyse is involved, because the moment they are unable to burst you down in 1 second is when you become invisible.
    Unlike Shadow Blade you can re-position and continue fighting without worrying that they can kill you because you have permanent invisibility when not attacking.
     
  4. ManOnTheCan

    ManOnTheCan Member

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    I'd rather have a support pick one up for me, it accomplishes the same thing. (or rather, since I mainly play utility/supports, I'd rather I pick one up, and the drow/sniper goes dps/bkb etc)
     
  5. kamukag3e

    kamukag3e Member

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    @ManOnTheCan:
    Sometimes depending on supports is bad, because you are split-pushing or they die too fast (very-late game).
    Sometimes BKB is not what it defends you (when heavy physical damage is involved).

    It's not 'permanent' if it's in a support as well.

    I mean I don't advocate it as "core" item or for every single game, just situational and even sometimes more valuable then Shadow Blade, when you don't search for the initiation/break effect so much as the defensive properties of the invisibility.
     
  6. RisaStoleMyHart

    RisaStoleMyHart Moderator Staff Member

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    It's not a poor man's Shadow Blade at all. Glimmer Cape and Shadow Blade fulfill different objectives. It's only 850 gold more expensive for +10 AS, 22 damage, +9 duration and +175 damage on-hit proc. The point of getting a quick Shadow Blade is to snowball harder and Drow is a fast farmer after 6. Getting Glimmer Cape is counter intuitive when you're a carry.

    It's not just that. Item management is a problem for all carries in late game once they're 6-slotted.

    Again, Shadow Blade is only 850 gold more. And if you're getting bursted down, the no-brain solution is to get a BKB.

    So you essentially got an early Glimmer Cape, because it's so cheap and "you need the invis ASAP," to complement a level 25 CD reduction talent? Why would you need perm invis as a DPS through glimmer cape when you break the invis anyway after the fade time. You could save 2 items and swap it with actual damage items because Gust with knockback talent and CD reduction is pretty much force staff and glimmer combined.

    Well, let's dissect your match.

    You did 1k less damage in an hour long game than your Rubick, who has half the networth, but I guess you made up for it in building damage. Your score is 9/13/19, so how did the Hurricane Pike + Glimmer and Linkens work out for you? Seems like Windrunner and Bristle carried while you mostly split-pushed, since you only participated in 28 kills out of 65. If then why would did get Glimmer instead of Shadow blade?
     
    kamukag3e likes this.
  7. kamukag3e

    kamukag3e Member

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    @RisaStoleMyHart:
    I know the fact that Glimmer is far worse DPS investment then Shadow Blade.
    Silver Edge is extremely important and much better for slot management as well, giving good stats boost for the slot and the additional 'break' effect is game-changing.
    The whole concept of the two item is different, while Shadow Blade/Silver Edge gives you offensive power, the defensive properties of Glimmer Cape are far superior - including the style you become invisible.

    I also do not get early Glimmer, I go for other items and get Cape far later into the game.
    My item build in this specific game was:
    Wraith Band => RoA, Boots of Speed, Yasha, Travel, Force Staff, Dragon Lance => Hurricane Pike, Manta, Linken, Glimmer Cape then Satanic and Travel level 2.

    The basic thing in that game was that WR and BB were having a easy early game, while I was not - I was facing Necro and Skywrath, mostly alone while Rubik was roaming between safe-lane and middle. Crystal and Bristle were facing Ember and Pudge, while Blood was middle versus WR.

    Then, I was mainly split-pushing and not entering fights, Drow with little farm is a fodder versus heroes like that. They were also hunting for me exclusively, because me and the supports were the easy kills, but I was nearly always somewhere alone and far away from safe spot. Aside from the tier 1 towers, the building damage on the other two cores comes from tier 4 and ancient, all tier 2 and tier 3 towers were taken down by me.

    I was providing +30 damage to all ranged heroes at the 15 minute mark and +64 at the 25 minute, so I think quite a big chunk of the WR's damage and kills are based on her big damage boost thanks to a Drow playing around that. Even Rubik was hitting with 150 damage at level 10 and 200+ damage a bit later.

    The reason Linken, Hurricane and Glimmer felt good, was because at one point at the game both WR and BB start entering bad fights and were dying, then I was the only one keeping the enemy in their base, by constantly poking from somewhere and escaping then poking from somewhere else, thanks to the mobility I had. My positioning and ability to find open space, playing mind games with such mobility would surprise you.
    Earlier in the game they manage to get a lot of kills thanks to their skills - Ember and Blood can have easy time killing under-farmed Drow. That's why I needed Manta, Pike and Linken. Cape give me the ability to juke them and fight them when in good situation, while being able to flee from engagement when another enemy showed. A SB or Edge won't be available in any single moment, while giving re-position options during the fight.
     
  8. MortalKombat3

    MortalKombat3 Member

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    Why would you build Glimmer on a carry, when you can build SB, with improvement into SE? And if you're afraid of magic damage, build BKB, or Hood.
    Glimmer's best advantages are that it's cheap and can be cast on others, so support can buy it and use it to save self or others. You never want to build that item on carry, period.
     
  9. kamukag3e

    kamukag3e Member

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    @MortalKombat3:
    Shadow Blade doesn't have nearly 100% invisibility up time, especially when you wish to hit while being invisible.

    BKB and Hood (BKB being better for carries), require slot, which this particular game were already scarce.

    Being support item - I agree, perhaps one of my most build item as a support, yet on a split-pushing strategy with those heroes, it's just not possible to expect support to move with you.
     
  10. MortalKombat3

    MortalKombat3 Member

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    Not for Drow, though. She can have 100+% invisiblity uptime with Silver Edge. And snipe also have quite high uptime for SE, with his CDR talent.
     
  11. kamukag3e

    kamukag3e Member

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    @MortalKombat3:
    Nah, you didn't get my drift.
    Silver Edge mechanics are different. You shoot once and you have to wait for the cooldown to be ready for your next shot.
    Basically you can be permanently invisible but not attacking at the same time Cape's mechanics makes you able to have something like permanent Moonlight Shadow with significantly lower fade time.

    Glimmer cape turn you invisible the second you stop shooting, able you to re-position yourself and shoot again, while being invisible all the time.
     
  12. MortalKombat3

    MortalKombat3 Member

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    Any player with a bit of brain will use Dust/Sentry to counter that. If they dont, you're playing VS noobs, and VS noobs, everything works. Not to mention, that 5 second duration is far too short for that, it might be not enough to escape even. Perhaps, if Glimmer could be upgraded into something more worthy (just like Force Staff can be upgraded into Pike), with better stats.... But not as current 2k gold item.
     
  13. kamukag3e

    kamukag3e Member

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    @MortalKombat3:
    At the late-game, what item worth of 5k gold will you exchange for that, the fighting prowess will be lowered significantly and both of the heroes can utilize Manta to dispel the de-buff and their superior mobility to run away from the range of a sentry.

    A solo carry would most likely skip detection, pair of heroes will still have problems catching up (not all, some of them) and dedicating a lot of time chasing a split-pusher is usually good for the team of the split-pusher.

    I do agree that Cape is lacking in therms of stats, but that 5 seconds of duration with 2/5 seconds of down time which you can just use your other active items or skills to buy some time are usually enough.

    In that particular game I had 6 active items and Gust, halved cooldown for all of them felt very powerful.
     
  14. MortalKombat3

    MortalKombat3 Member

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    Enemy support or offlaner-initiator will carry a gem, or sentries and you'll be fucked. Your "strategy" with glimmer works only against noobs, or teams, where you can kill supports without risk of being counter-initiated (= very poor pick).
     
  15. Nisamraw

    Nisamraw Member

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    Yeah hilarious indeed since Glimmer costs 90 mana. Drow level 25 has exactly 651 mp. "Perma invis". Even with Pike/Manta/PT int, you barely reach 1k, which is 10 uses or 50sec of invis IF perfectly timed, and WITHOUT any mana left for frost arrows/gust, or other items. Amazing, but I guess we could add Scythe/Kaya/Bloodstone to solve that issue. Oh boy, can't wait to pubstomp :cat:
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2018
  16. kamukag3e

    kamukag3e Member

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    @Nisamraw:
    I do agree that the item is far from optimal and situational at best ... yet never would think that the mana cost is of importance.
    1,000+ mana is more then enough to use all of your spells multiple times in a single engagement which is more then enough.
     
  17. Oesile

    Oesile Member

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    Interesting topic.

    I can see how invisibility early can be useful, but you already get that with a Shadow Amulet. Granted, you aren't able to move and juke very far, and it doesn't give magic resistance, but it doesn't run out unlike Glimmer, never costs you mana (mostly moot point but if you use frost arrows it can matter), and if you get caught splitpushing with glimmer as Drow/Sniper I think you want to pop invis + tp ASAP, and die if you get stunned, making the magic resistance a bit moot, especially since it's delayed (well, it's twice as short as shadow amulet, however).

    If you're having trouble, perhaps more health + Shadow Amulet will do the trick- this way you at least keep your progression going for shadow blade if you opt to get it later on. Just being able to avoid wards (unless clustered with sentries) by running around the map with extra ms while invis also has value.
    Granted, Glimmer does give a lot more survivability then Wraith + Shadow Amulet against magic damage. At level 7 with no other items (this calc is in Wraith's favor), Glimmer gives 1204.71 magical EHP while Wraith band gives only 1104, and that's while glimmer is inactive. More levels and hp items just increase this difference in Glimmer's favor.

    Basically this is relevant against enemy heroes that can't stun you out of invis, do a lot of aoe magic damage to you anyway, or can kill you in 1.2 seconds (before shadow amulet pops and you can tp to safety).

    A game vs high magic burst heroes with no AOE stuns like Skywrath (or even cores like SF), and one where you are behind to boot (or risk being solo-killed before pulling off a silence, so SF is out), is probably the best case scenario for Glimmer on Drow, and one where I can see it being a good pickup. Won't work against many magic damage heroes like Sand King, Earth Shaker, Jakiro, or heroes that have long disables they can time right after you use shadow amulet / glimmer, like shadow shaman (if he hexes you or uses NAYA TAYA ANDAKA you aren't tp'ing anywhere).
    Plus if you're in position to silence them, you can do that using Shadow amulet too.

    It can be good, but it's def niche.

    If we're looking at the CD reduction talent, well, at that point you don't want a glimmer to begin with. It's late enough that you're either going to have to stick with your team because the risk of you dying is too great, or they have counters ready to catch you if you split push (if they don't SB is still better).
     
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  18. kamukag3e

    kamukag3e Member

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    @Oesile:
    Shadow Amulet alone is useful for juke purposes only if you are able to get in between the trees and turn invisible while in the Fog of War. Otherwise you can't move and enemies will be aware where exactly you are standing.
    With Cape you are able to gain some distance - always, just changing direction and getting to Fog of War while invisible etc.

    Now that aside, because it's not the topic I'm talking about.

    Glimmer indeed give greater EHP against magical damage, the passive and active part are a huge boost to the spell resistance, survival wise it's good, at least above mediocre. But coupled with invisibility grants the benefit of being extremely good defensive item, increase chances of survival when the enemy try to kill you. Which is something which the two heroes actually enjoy and usually build plenty of items improving their odds.
    Yes, Shadow Blade is superior in many senses, but not in all. Cape is niche and I completely agree with that, will buy Shadow Blade perhaps 8 or 9 times out of 10, but some people completely negate the viability of Cape.

    It's actually quite useful against stuns - unless they are instant. If you manage to activate it and turn invisible while they are closing in despite being stunned or managing to dodge it - unless they have detection, their damage both physical and magical will be mitigated quite a lot.