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Dragonscus Coffee Shop

Discussion in 'Hero Ideas' started by Wrooks, Oct 8, 2016.

  1. summer-penguin

    summer-penguin Moderator Staff Member

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    From the shadows I say hello.
    What's dead may never die.

    I'm just taking some time off, paying some bills, sweating like a working class hero, busy w/ full time parenting.
    Got emailed by Epic Games, we'll talk about that later.
    Nothing major.

    I'll be back here shortly.
     
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  2. Beary

    Beary Member

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    IEatDeadPeoples works for Epic Games. Some game called Paragon.
     
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  3. summer-penguin

    summer-penguin Moderator Staff Member

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    So, I've got a hero draft nice and ready. (in my mind... writing it down might take a while, as I'll need to do the math and set its numbers right)
    I've got the theme that I want, but I'm struggling w/ its title.
    I'd like some help, if you guys would.

    The hero is going to be an accursed beguiler and a courtman, some sort of "Rasputin", a dark mage w/ mind and spell binding powers, but imposing and evil, like a vampire lord. Maybe religious, but diabolical.
    He's an immortal man, taking different identities through the ages, bringing kings and kingdoms down by driving their rulers mad.
    He's the one behind the madness that accursed the last king of Sloam. (Beastmaster's lore and Lycan's)
    He's the one who deceived Ostarion in his lust for an unwielding power. (Wraith King's lore)
    He might even be responsible for what happened to the Ghastly Eyrie. (Vengeful Spirit's lore and Skywrath's)


    I need titles.

    The ones that I could come up with were: The Mensbinder, The Mindflayer, The Defiler, The Scourge, The Occultist, The Witcher.
    I also thought of using Eldritch, somewhere.

    I'll wrap it up and write it down as soon as I'm back. I won't say soon though (haha), but I hope to have it in here, dressed and finished, before TI7.
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2017
  4. Haasva

    Haasva Member

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    Sounds promising.
     
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  5. Jon

    Jon Member

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    Ehem? summer, that's an understatement if I ever saw one.
     
  6. dewouter

    dewouter Moderator Staff Member

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    Subscribed to newsletter
     
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  7. Eli_Green

    Eli_Green Member

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    Lightsaberpope.jpg

    Sovereign and dominator seem to be words that fit your description, though admittedly I find it difficult to title things with no name.
     
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  8. 1Frame_Dynamism

    1Frame_Dynamism Member

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    Make a twist that he's really a nice mage but sucks at his job

    Call him Genius Christy
     
  9. summer-penguin

    summer-penguin Moderator Staff Member

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    I can't really say much about it for I was asked to keep a low profile, but apparently Epic Games has staff running around the net searching for personnel to build an active community to Paragon. And by active I mean clever and involved w/ the game development.
    To nurture, actually. (not build, since it already exists)

    I don't know if you guys are familiar w/ Paragon, but from all the big MOBAs of today, Paragon is leading the pace of heroes released after release. Epic Games is, imo, doing a remarkable job there.
    Of course Valve is in a entirely different position w/ Dota, but to us, used to the game for a decade or so, it's an eyewash, seeing a MOBA having a new hero released every month.
    And their community leaders are actually employees. Epic Game's.
    And they do have an official forum, hosted within Paragon's official site.
    And the forum is officially requesting ideas. Mostly, heroes.
    It has a Hero Concepts topic (officially started by its staff). It has a Send Us Your Content topic (also officially started). All inside a sub forum named Fan Made.
    And that's great.
    I was told that they do have a few golden members with hero ideas that have been released. Accepted, worked around (w/ its original creator) and implemented. And this... this is fantastic. Epic Games, and Paragon, already have my admiration. (I got goosebumps when I read that... it dazzled, truly)
    (and if you check the announcement trailer of its newest hero (here), it even says something about a guy that "brought you this and that hero"... now I don't know if this is what he was talking about but I got the feeling that it was)

    The guy that addressed to me said that he's familiar with my engagement in here, in our suggestions forums. He didn't say much about himself though, but from what was mentioned, I understood that he used to play Dota, and that he had an account on PD. (I can't say if he has an account here, and I couldn't tell when it was that he dropped Dota)
    He was interested in knowing if I play or have played Paragon. He asked how often. And if positive, if I would consider a position in its forums. (in his opinion (I believe you guys would want to hear that), it's quite a shame that Valve is not (officially) appreciating the quality of what we're doing here)
    But then again, no salary was mentioned. And I, and all the mods in here (I suppose), do what we do because we like to, and because we are so very familiar to it, "working" in here is hardly an effort, it's hardly an occupation.
    And though I am familiar to Paragon and its heroes, no I have not played it yet, so... getting to be that guy, it'd be an occupation. And I cannot go through that, atm.

    So I respectfully declined.

    * * *

    Back to my hero, I was thinking about an italian name, or roman, or perhaps even greek. (an attempt to create the feeling that he's been here for quite a long time)
    But any lord-ish name would do, even titles prior to the name would do. As long as it sounds imposing and suits the title.

    The title should be something that resembles a beguiler or a charmer, but evil, vile, or deceiving, treacherous. Magical or not.
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2017
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  10. Jon

    Jon Member

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    Maybe "Bewitcher" would be a good title?
     
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  11. Eli_Green

    Eli_Green Member

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    >Ebin games looking to make modern Pedragons

    colour me surprised :cat:

    I thought about bewitcher but it doesn't sound grandiose enough for the mastermind theme Summer seems to be shooting for.

    Bewitcher kind of has a more playful nature to it, just my 2c
     
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  12. summer-penguin

    summer-penguin Moderator Staff Member

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    ^ That's exactly how I felt about Bewitcher.
    I forgot to mention it, I forgot it actually. It was a title that I found nice, real nice. It is a possibility, it suits his ultimate like a glove.
    But then there's what Eli just mentioned.
     
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  13. 1Frame_Dynamism

    1Frame_Dynamism Member

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    Well...

    [rant]
    With all games that lean on being remixes of other things, and purposefully so for both game-literacy of players/devs and because there's a guaranteed market for it, it's really easy to see quirks in the game-design work through the oddities in what they do.
    Obviously this is the case, and necessarily so given they're 'remixes' but still, it doesn't seem to get any attention at least in the way it WOULD should people know how to look clearly.

    It doesn't matter what kind of game (or medium for that matter) either.
    Platform fighters like 'Smash' being bottle-necked into basically whatever 'Nintendo' releases in the chain-line because nobody else knows what makes the game good. So the only other platform-fighters (which literally just means a 2D platformer with a 'versus' mode lol) are either made by indie developers (Rivals of Aether) or mods (Project M) and any are decent because they care in that sense, while any good-sized studio just makes really poor spin-offs and smash rip-offs (Playstation Allstars) that are somehow 'intentionally' aimed at being a good competitive game (whatever that means) and somehow miss the mark entirely.

    Standard fighting games (Street Fighter and friends), open world avatar-builders (WoW and friends) and first person shooters (Half Life and friends) are obviously loaded with this, and there are many reasons for it. Whether it's the large communities that have necessarily built a common-ground of anything from series-release hype to skill-investment to whatever (FGs come in droves), or the VERY good engine being available for it (FPS spam), or simple mechanisms that helped initially and stuck around because they're good enough (xp/progress bars on everything)

    These games all remixed each other so much as the 'meta-game' for that medium developed, explored its components, made discoveries as it went, etc. Things like 'meter' or hitstun variations or other resources or bigger worlds or new toys, and yet they keep their foundations. Some arbitrary things (complicated inputs for moves, gold from killing things, etc) but it doesn't matter, they exist and work.

    Yet it's a given that this is NOT deliberate anymore the way it may have been once upon a time, because at this point, these games don't even remix each other anymore, they're just rebuilt with bigger budgets, more information storage, new-tweak-of-an-old-tweak from another game like it brought from one franchise to the next and altered to fit the mold of the new system.

    Which is no different from 3D platformers, which died, because 'newer' Mario-like games kept losing more and more of what made that original Mario 64 'good' because they take the bare-bones of it on the surface level and forget about the parts that make a game something worth HAVING AT ALL. Whether it's the RC Car physics or constant active play without massive down-times of things like hubs and menues and uncontrollable zones. The things that actually made a good game were replaced with bouncing physics and more collectables in the FRAMEWORK of a game about MOVING.

    Which is no different and applies to all those other things too.
    SF5 being sloppy, MvC4 as a mediocre copy-paste of what came before, all TF2/CoD/etc and WoW/Wildstar/etc.
    The epitome of "everything is a remix, but with a massive budget" is probably Overwatch, where it was focus-grouped and homogenized to the blandest possible aesthetic (deliberately and well-executed because blizzard has been doing it for a while) to appeal to as many as possible and marketed beyond reason. It's amazingly well made, but brings quite precisely NOTHING NEW AT ALL to the gaming world at large OR the genre of game it is.
    Outside of being a look at what can be done with a massive budget. (which is pretty cool we can have AAA studios doing things like GTA and whatnot) Yet the entire game could be copy-pasted back and forth between the other generic-slate games like Paladins, which wasn't with as big a budget, is slightly more dynamic and better designed (or just better game) overall, but doesn't have the blizzard-like-staff to make it as objectively good in the places that count for 'Remix-Games' like the professionalism of how to get the game feeling instant-novelty-eye-catching-good.

    It's like the days of experimentation to invent things that break the mold in LARGER games is gone. There's a reason that Mario 64 was so good, and the main developer literally running around in a EMPTY landscape until that ALONE was fun, 'probably' had something to do with it.
    Or like Smash's 'Directional Influence' being one of the most brilliant things in gaming in general to-date, yet only ever found in a hand-full of games because the market is there but not understood in the slightest.
    Though I guess that one makes sense since the developer for Smash spent more hours on that game in a 2 year span than possibly any game dev to-date on anything ever, and was a genius with so many other games too, and he said he'd never do it again because he was so burnt out LOL.
    Back to DotA
    For DotA-context, it's like when all of those games like League of Legends came out, and there were those REALLY obvious oddities about it.
    Whether it's ease-of-dev-time (doubt it since they released Heroes constantly forever) or just plain not knowing what makes DotA good and just wanted to change something so it wouldn't be a direct-clone... the game removed the MAJORITY of the functions that made SENSE in a Top-Down version of that game-style/genre (moba)
    Targeting specific things at any distance/anywhere on a map... movable vision-point available to see anywhere... control many units at once? Can't do that in almost any other gaming-perspective THAN top-down. But then it's removed, neutered entirely.
    This was done backwards with everything from the way 'Grass' works in that game, to the way infinite wards work with a jungle that compact with turns that doesn't have anything but that 'grass' for terrain other than straight up walls, to the active use of abilities, to things not needing to be skill shots because you can actually click anywhere with top-down.

    Then comes along games like Smite/etc, who actually take what LoL DID, and brought it to a platform/perspective/game-type where what LoL did MAKES A LOT OF SENSE.
    Compact jungle with lots of turns, can't click anywhere on the map, wards being spammy but mixed with the vision being tied to your position, non-active items and everything being skill-shots to navigate mobs and whatever else the games have.
    It makes WAY more sense. And yet, I don't think the majority of the people who do these things have ANY IDEA WHY or that they even DID the smart thing. I know 100% Smite devs don't, I've looked into it and basically all of them have no idea what they're doing. I'm pretty sure that goes for most dev teams on most games, simply not knowing what's going on but some stuff works and some doesn't so they stick to it (LoL to Smite stuck to everything).

    And then more games come out, of every kind, and do the same things. Not same things as in make-the-same-games-remixed, but same things referring to the same 'not knowing why they do what they do outside of it being a good thing to do.' So we get spammed games (omg so many) and we're stuck with remixes of each other beyond reason. The same silly things (laughable and superfluous = silly) that are now blatantly mistakes the moment anyone (and we all do too) take a moment to observe what exists and see how silly it is.
    Silly inputs, silly dropped features, silly added features, silly concept and design in both game-play and simple mechanisms that getting information to the player visually or other, everything.

    This isn't even a complex turn-of-the-tide or change-the-industry stuff, this is basic foundational obvious stuff leaning in the direction a team TRIES to go with a game.

    So we get another and another.
    The next 3D-MOBA that has... 2 things
    1 - Competent dynamic AI instead of brain-dead mobs.

    Like even slightly...
    If we can have the AI of neutrals, lanes, and 5v5 computer-controlled Heroes all acting somewhat differently (even in DotA1 this was the case)
    ... and the game isn't even catered to this AT ALL
    ...AND it's based of a system that was necessarily optimized as it was because of the limitations, and the game was built around these limitations (all games need this in the framework of course) to be the DotA-that-it-is-today, so naturally there are infinite other limitations you could build a game AS GOOD or BETTER than DotA around given DotA hit a TINY niche of 'what could have been'...

    ...Then I'm sure we can finally get a game with something as simple as multiple kinds of 'Smart AI' mobs, lane or not, that have variables in their actions, or at least have a greater role that 'walking into each other to get killed for resources'
    This could be anything from how they act IN a lane, to how their pathing works, to simply giving players things to aim for and watch out for and target and move around, whether 'creeps' with shields, massive range attacks, whatever, complimenting the rest of the game-play.

    2 - Single Lane dynamic terrain laning, not '3-Lanes + Jungle v.5001'

    Throw this together with mobs for the dynamic lane-combat and no longer is there a jungle in the sense we know it, but the WHOLE thing is a jungle, or the WHOLE thing is more comparable to being a WAVE-based game like dota/etc but one that doesn't consist of non-factor mobs and towers/attacking things as the only objectives...
    ...or it can open up to be a more roaming game, whether like paintball mixed with an open-world vibe of positional control and dynamic objectives like trying to find stuff on the map before the enemies (while there's a freaking battle going on), or whatever...

    Speaking of WC3, even that kind of map would be interesting, just have the 'lanes' be town-like things that progress AS the Heroes do/leveling up/getting items based on strength of town, whatever.
    Anything... a lane that's 3 times bigger than normal with rivers and platforms and crevices and the rest like normal-moba
    ...both teams fight for a throne in the 'middle' of the map and have to knock down pillars to get there with artifacts they fight for from open-world dragons on the map using their armies
    ...ANYTHING

    They're all MOBAs that are 100% AS GOOD as the current 'standard' but nobody seems to have any idea, so the amount of lanes and camps gets shuffled around with a few new item/hero mechanics and thrown into the abyss of remixes.

    Just like Platform Fighters, the market is SOOOOO DRYYYY outside of 'Remixes' (and even IN the remixes lol) that literally ANYTHING YOU DO that tries to bring ANYTHING new to the GAMING-WORLD is BOUND to do it, because it's SOOOO DRRRYYYYYYYY

    2 THINGS ONLY IT'S THAT EASY
    THEY COULD DO IT TO THEIR EXISTING GAME WITHIN A YEAR BECAUSE IT'S THE SIMPLEST THINGS
    dota literally does 100% of this every single patch, just catering to a single thing, so doing this from the ground up wouldn't even be difficult to change to the dota-style-etc format if you didn't want to along the way
    SEE WHAT HAPPENS FOR ONCE
    AND I'LL THROW MYSELF AT IT

    because it means there's at least 1 intelligent person there.
    1 single person smart enough to know that the vastly dynamic game-type called 'moba' has NOT EVEN had it's SURFACED SCRATCHED, and realized that making a new game-mode involves more than simply adding control points, powers, obstacles, and arenas, and that there's a reason why some stuff turns out well and some stuff doesn't.
    Go figure...
    It's like Frank Zappa about music or something. The whole "Old guys with cigars back in the day were like "I don't know if that music is any good, throw it on the air and lets see!""
    Eventually got replaced with fresh-guns who thought they knew what people liked because it was selling ALREADY so they would only put THAT on the air more and more, never even THINKING about WHY or WHAT could be done.

    Sure, throwing big (BIG) money at something that has a CHANCE of not doing well (they're businesses after all), is risky.
    ESPECIALLY if you don't have one of those Myamoto/Sakurai (Icefrog lol) people you can count on, or find.
    But gawdamn

    Content-making for games exists whether they like it or not. Especially for games like MOBAs and so on. 'Hero Creation' is fun.
    It's great that some games REALLY cater to it, and support it, it's like they KNOW it's there and good and valuable and actually did the right thing about it.
    Which is awesome.
    But after all of that... at the end of the day...
    Paragon, and every other game, don't need a better source for 'content making' or to get content-makers and so on...
    They need somebody to break their game, so it can be fixed.

    Just like the way we talk about 'Hero Suggestions' here.
    If it's not something that's fun, functional, dynamic, in ALL aspects of the game from being aesthetically unique to pragmatically engaging and interactive AS, WITH, and AGAINST, in GAMES OF DOTA BEING PLAYED...
    Then there's NO REASON for that Hero to exist, and the Suggestion legitimately has no place.
    If it doesn't bring anything to the game, it's simply doesn't have to be in the game.
    If the game doesn't bring anything new to the gaming world, or at least the genre of its type, then it simply doesn't have to be in the world.

    ...
    [/rant]


    Edit: Editing
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2017
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  14. Ryugo

    Ryugo Member

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    How about *something* Vizir/Counselour and name him Ozymandias while you are at it.
     
  15. 1Frame_Dynamism

    1Frame_Dynamism Member

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    I like the *something* part

    [​IMG]
     
  16. Ryugo

    Ryugo Member

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    That's where the trick is!
     
  17. 1Frame_Dynamism

    1Frame_Dynamism Member

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    doggie catty cowy
    To anyone who searches those words on this forum...
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  18. Beary

    Beary Member

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    ^ you forgot beary
     
  19. Dehua_Darbuya

    Dehua_Darbuya Member

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    You bring up a very solid point here and I agree with you for the most part.

    The key issue from my point of view, and as you touched on, is that all these AoS-type games are based on a winning formula; two teams battling it out to destroy the other's base with the aid of waves upon waves of creeps. From there, it's all "remixes" as you put it with regards to heroes and such, and you really can't go wrong (unless you're Infinite Crisis which is a little tragic because DC did try to somewhat deviate from the norm with their take on an AoS).

    There are some Dota 2 mods that also try to give new spin on the genre but they're still, for the most part, an AoS.
    • Curse of River's End (objective is to kill Roshan and return the Aegis to the Shopkeeper; probably heard of this one)
    • Destroy the Tower (objective is to destroy the tower in the center of the map; haven't tried it and relatively new)
    Again, very solid point.
     
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  20. SataNiK Gui

    SataNiK Gui Member

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