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Dota hero debate thread

Discussion in 'Meta-Game Discussion' started by Wrooks, Jul 3, 2018.

  1. Wrooks

    Wrooks Member

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    lets start with viper

    what do you think of viper's new ability compared to his old one... is it better or worse since its been added?
     
  2. kamukag3e

    kamukag3e Member

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    @Wrooks:
    Well, when you consider that his old one was combined with his Poison Attack (but in slightly lower state) and he gained completely new ability on top of it. Only on that premise I would say - 'better'.

    Considering the usefulness of the ability against certain heroes - it's really great to have it.
    It's DPS alone is enough to consider it mediocre, the 'break' ability is superb when applied.
     
  3. Abdulink

    Abdulink Member

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    He's a much worse laner than before but a better hero overall.
     
  4. Eutychius

    Eutychius Moderator Staff Member

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    This isn't the type of thread allowed in WND since it's Dota-related. Moved to Meta-Game Discussion.
     
  5. kamukag3e

    kamukag3e Member

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    @Abdulink:
    I don't know how he is worse hero. His lane presence is stronger and can easily shut-down all the heroes which he previously could and in addition few more.
    Poison Attack is pretty much gives him two of the abilities which he previously had while spending one point instead.

    Nethertoxin damage is respectable and force the enemy to move instead of standing and attacking and will still lose some health during the process.

    He is not one dimensional later in the game and have access to "Break" which is available for quite a big gold investment for most heroes and that's really big early and mid-game counter to Bristleback, Antimage, Spectre and Sniper on top of my head.
     
  6. Equivocal

    Equivocal Member

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    I think it's in the rules that only one topic per thread

    I think Viper is in a very fine spot right now. He does have some massive manaproblems, and there are no real good mana regen items for him. Orchid is alright but kinda not what he really wants to build.
     
  7. kamukag3e

    kamukag3e Member

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    @Equivocal:
    I think that itemization for Viper depends on his position.
    He is quite decent dual-lane hard-lane hero and actually roamer (won't talk about his middle).

    I think that he doesn't have 'massive' problems with his mana, more like - moderate problems, Crystal Maiden or pair of Arcane boots in his team can solve it with the additional help of Aquila.

    IMO Urn/Vessel is not such a bad item for him, nor Eul's Scepter in some cases - mostly, when he is not supposed to deal the main chunk of damage for his team, so basically when he is not middle.
    Drums and Necronomicon are really forgotten items for him, while being decent pick in a lot of circumstances.

    Combination of few of those items is legit build while fixing his mana issues.
     
  8. Wrooks

    Wrooks Member

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    I'll add a table of contents when it comes time to change heroes...plus the topic is debating the state of all heroes in dota. plus i don't think the moderators want 100 posts of debating...
     
  9. SaitoAOG

    SaitoAOG Member

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    overall i think viper is a pretty decent hero, but pretty weak when exploited. hes pretty bad until 5-6, and a few characters can make him into food with alone or with friends, and his kill potential on ganks pre level 6 relies on preemptively reducing their hp through orb walking. orb walking is well... not that effective when the enemy is ranged as they can easily hit back with no negatives.

    the core reason i think hes weak is theres a very exploitable part of his game plan, viper before he finished tanking up is this weird hero who specializes in soloing, however, an enemy can leave that lane and get heavy into pushes with more teamfight oriented characters. this leave the viper at a loss of options beyond farming since before tanking up, a viper can be bursted down relatively easily given the right team comp which makes his rotation sub optimal. couple that with the fact he isn't one of THOSE mids (you know, the game goes super late and the game becomes straight up stupid, ember, storm, tinker?) and i dunno hes lackluster.

    pre-rework viper felt better overall, just because his game plan of being a lane dominator felt more easy to achieve, and he could snowball out from there, new viper is just... a mess of concepts, and he has break for some reason (which feels really unfair or completely useless, but he isn't exactly the go to counterpick for passive carriers)
     
  10. BloodRampage-

    BloodRampage- Member

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    delete slark and the game is automatically 50% better imo
     
  11. kamukag3e

    kamukag3e Member

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  12. Abdulink

    Abdulink Member

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    Slark? Slark is nothing compared to cancerous shits likes Zeus/Pudge who keep getting unnecessarily buffed by IF for no reason other than to see 'competitive' play.
     
  13. BloodRampage-

    BloodRampage- Member

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    while zeus/pudge are definitely overbuffed pubstompers, slark is just a fundamentally broken design of a hero (regardless of whether hes OP or not) that needs a total rework or needs to be removed... its just stupid and annoying to be playing vs slark, especially as supports

    unlimited regen (to nullify all your expensive spellcasts) and bonus move speed just for jumping behind a tree has to be the no.1 most retarded mechanic in the whole game
     
  14. Wrooks

    Wrooks Member

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    Slark didn't become op to me until the use of shadowblade became one of his core items...otherwise it takes skill to land his pounce.

    He is the one hero besides legion commander and axe that has a get out of jail free card when it comes to initiating
     
  15. Nisamraw

    Nisamraw Member

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    He's clearly better except his laning which was pretty much killed.
     
  16. SaitoAOG

    SaitoAOG Member

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    eh... thats not really true, his design isn't that absurd some supports can deal with him, notably hex and its interaction with slark feels pretty unfair on a counterpick, and you can area stun him during his invis, forcing him to blow purge during that meaning he is food when he comes out.

    and him having infinite regen isn't really specific to him, alchemist has nearly the same thing with a relatively short downtime, albeit alchemist sucks, and since kills became based on networth, he became a liability to have on any team.

    hes not really a broken design of a hero.

    that honor goes to PL, whos design issues stem from the fact illusion mix ups are fine, but amassing a screen full of illusions and misclicking constantly even if you know which one is the real one because of the camera system used in dota not being completely overhead and more angular, which requires proper positioning of the camera to even be able to accurately click something. that character's mechanics are fundamentally broken because the game they exist in cannot handle their abilities in a way that doesn't feel stupid due to the control scheme. outside of just that, pl can also literally destroy the experience of dota by summoning over 60 illusions and causing the game to chug horribly.

    saying slark breaks the game due to how his kit affects players is a bit unfair, there are strict counters (hex, for god knows what reasons, alongside taunts, and aoe stuns/nukes) and isn't that scary or hard to deal with. though i will admit his ability to find wards feels... pretty dumb and unneeded to his kit, hes meant to be slippery and hard to kill, similar to puck, just instead of being an obnoxious caster, hes and obnoxious carry.

    tl;dr

    alchemist and phantom lancer have mechanics that fundamentally dont jive with the game currently, and can be considered broken (alch because networth, pl because camera is not strictly overhead, and screen spam makes it hard to click accurately)

    Slark has no mechanic that doesn't jive well with the system, more just skills that are polarizing and not fun to play around.
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2018
  17. BloodRampage-

    BloodRampage- Member

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    alch atleast has a manacost and cd associated with his ultimate, and doesnt have a 'free' passive component to his ult either

    slark is more like 'lets just throw every possible utility into his abilities until he works' -- but i cant emphasise enough that having free regen at no real risk/cost at all is a massively broken mechanic
     
  18. lexxy157

    lexxy157 Member

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    Imo the only problem with slark is his purge having 10 instances(?), with 1 of them being at the very end of the spell. Gets pretty annoying when you mistimed a disable by 0.1 sec and he just runs along to safety. Other than that, the problems lies mostly with how uncoordinated a pubgame can be. With decent teammates he can get wrecked really hard.

    OT: I like the fact that Viper has more utility and a reliable way to farm now. Yeah he is no longer the lane winner he once was, but I'd say he is still decent. And a break at lvl 1 to deal with that annoying huskar/bb/lc/tide/pa/etc? Sign me up.