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Dota 7.18 - Post qualifier rebalance patch

Discussion in 'Dota Chat' started by Lama051, Apr 26, 2018.

  1. kamukag3e

    kamukag3e Member

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    On the topic of "MOBA" and DotA:
    Well, DotA is a MOBA if we search for the word - I also dislike it as a therm, because it could include hundreds of games which have no actual connection to each other, but it's already used to describe games in the same genre as DotA, LoL and Smite so I don't see the problem of being used as such.

    In therms of balance:
    I think that quite a lot of the changes are there just to remind some players about certain heroes, to seen as 'we are doing work' and to push some heroes in said direction.
    Most trivial changes (like +/- movement speed or armor) won't influence the game that much, but some changes which usually people pass easily can drastically change the flow of the game.

    For example - the Bounty rune introduction - their first iteration at the river rune just so that both heroes would have access to refill their bottle instead of being luck-based until the most recent changes - four of them being spawned every 5 minute completely change the strategy, pre-horn movements and support move patterns over the map, the importance of map control and similar things while quite a lot of players still don't get it or just adapt to it without put it into consideration as something of importance.

    This big changes have their good and bad points but it's still a progress, because after something is implemented it's putted in their right place over time and the game feel completely different and 'fresh'.
     
  2. ThunderTF2

    ThunderTF2 Member

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    Even World of Warcraft Pvp arena (part of game, C.O.) is more fitting to be called MOBA.
    "Multiplayer Online" triggers me a lot, but... nvm.

    Well, that does only affect amateurs, while compitetive scene give 0 fucks (and lots of laught) about Clinkz over and over again being buffed.
    I dont really care much too (still kinda weak and easily counterable), but he is pain in the ass if somehow he could hit few of his grace moments:
    1) Favorable 1x1 mid or easy lane, last pick or pick into obvious lane opponent.
    2) Enemies doesnt have in-built abilities to save them from phys burst. The solution to the problem is allegedly the purchase of an Orchid instead of a Medallion, but skipping it too slows the purchase of other artifacts (including Orchid).
    3) Enemies doesnt push = Doesnt get items earlier (than regular) to save them from phys burst/orchid and combination of hex/bloodthorn/nullifier.
    4) Enemies doesnt have too much roaming potential (e.g. in 2x1x2 sometimes pos 4 hero cannot leave lane and help mid at all)
    5) Enemies doesnt have strong melee allies and many direct abilties (e.g. things that completely ignores Strafe).
    6) You have to kill as much as possible enemy heroes before they group as five
    7) Your team should have front line hero and/or overall active lineup.
    8) By the time they grouped as five you either shoulve:
    8.1) Split, yet your team should have way to prolong their push time or even sudoku cancel tps if you are sieging raxes.
    8.2) Have bkb + 1 dps item (Medallion counts as a dps item)
    9) Additonaly - Enemies doesnt have too much CC, Burst. Or atleast you should be lucky or skilled enough to either kill them before they use abilties or not get caught while running across the map in search of prey.

    Basically control points that spawns each 5 mins.
    HotS vibes?

    Dont get me wrong, no matter how i scold them (and they deserve it) they are still the best DotA game.
    I like (liked? not sure now) the way they develop game, but some obvious flaws that SHOULDNT be in game AT ALL are still in the game and some patches just vivificate them.
     
    kamukag3e likes this.
  3. Abdulink

    Abdulink Member

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    Just waiting for when Nimbus gets nerfed.

    On that note, can someone explain to me for what motherfucking reason in earth does Nimbus have fucking GLOBAL cast range? Please enlighten me.
     
  4. MortalKombat3

    MortalKombat3 Member

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    Because otherwise, it would be just a "glorified Dagon". You can ask the same question about Nature's Prophet - "Why does he have global teleport to any point on the map?".

    Pros pick Clinks too. I've seen how Dendi stomped with Clinks in competive match.
    Also, since Broodmother received ridiculous buffs (almost no bounty for "feeding" with spiders, etc), she became a very popular pick (and ban!) in competive. She's OP ATM. I predict she'll be a VERY often pick/ban in International.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 6, 2018
    MrFrank likes this.
  5. kamukag3e

    kamukag3e Member

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    @MortalKombat3:
    Brood was and is a very strong hero when there is no one to counter her.
    Not feeding hundred of gold with summons is good, but if there is a possibility to lose the lane - then the hero is not worth even picking.

    Yes, a lot of lineups which lack the ability to counter Brood can be counter-picked with the hero and she can do more then decent, but plenty of heroes can easily subdue her and then the pick is beyond useless.

    Brood is one of the few heroes which can't do anything unless they manage to dominate the early game.

    Few picks such as Sand King, Bristleback, Magnataur and Legion just laugh at Brood as a pick.
    Anyone with double stout shield (even ranged heroes) have pretty decent chance of surviving the early game just because of that - and the already mentioned would have really easy lane and game.
     
  6. ThunderTF2

    ThunderTF2 Member

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    Yeah, its not like you are lying.

    But last time i was pleased watching succesfully executed Clinkz is Navi 1 or 2 years ago running Bone + Chen strategy.
    Brood ridiclously strong early game as lastpick against no counter.

    She stomps with very little gold in her pocket, but absurdly weak later.

    Thats why Optic runs Domi+Pipe+smth Brood, cuz no matter how much carry items she have - it wont help outcarrying real carry, even with 1-2 slot advantage.

    Wasting a ban on a hero noone really enjoy playing?
    This hero doesnt feel like a moba hero at all.

    You can blame drafter(s) that was lured in such silky trap, at some extent.
    But having a hero that uses lastpick advantage with such effectiveness is just dum.

    Actually if you see same heroes getting banned over and over again that says enough about current balance state.
    Well, same goes for every dota game.
    I heard LuL uses ~15% of its hero pool to play games (both bans and picks).
    HoN have\had (i watched some hon world tourneys recently) wider hero pool, yet game is still too unbalanced.

    p.s.: Huskar always had opportunity to be a lategame core, but everyone just focuses on early game domination, thats why players past pub expirience leaves them thinking about him as risky and unworthy heroes.
     
    kamukag3e likes this.
  7. MortalKombat3

    MortalKombat3 Member

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    Dendi joined Vega Squadron recently, right? I meant Kaipi VS Vega game on Summit 8. BTW, in that match there were both Clinks and Brood. But Brood (from Kaipi) played very passively, just farmed creeps instead of pushing or making kills. Of course, that brood was useless later, cause it didnt used early advantage to make pressure on enemy team.
     
  8. ThunderTF2

    ThunderTF2 Member

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    Gimme dotabuff/opendota link on match or ingame match id, pls
     
  9. Abdulink

    Abdulink Member

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    Glorified Dagon? Did you just compare Nimbus to a fuckign Dagon? Lol.

    And the point was Zeus already has one global spell, why the fuck is nimbus also global?

    And comparing the spell to NP's teleport is retarded as fuck. Nimbus doesn't need global caste range to be strong, Teleport does. Without global cast range Teleport would be a crap spell, Nimbus wouldn't be.

    And Teleport is NP's defining spell. Nimbus is an unlockable spell. The fact that you compare a hero's core spell to an aghs upgrade shows how broken that spell is.
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2018
  10. MortalKombat3

    MortalKombat3 Member

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    Well, i can understand, that making an ASU a "core" item for hero might feel a bit wrong. But what about Invoker? ASU is a core item for him too. Or Windranger - ASU is also a core item for her.
    You want ASU on Zeus nerfed like Mirana's one, from "core item" to "no one ever buys it"? In my opinion, all ASU's should be usable, and lot of of them are just a useless trash.

    ID: 3986808819
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2018
  11. ThunderTF2

    ThunderTF2 Member

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    [​IMG]
    Basically wtf.
    They just bad, thats all.
     
  12. Abdulink

    Abdulink Member

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    Unlike Invoker, Zeus is already ultra functional without an Aghs. Aghs just makes him go bonkers. So that comparison is moot really.

    Yes, an ASU should be a decent one, but not outright broken. Which is why I believe first of all the spell should be stripped of its global cast range; without it the spell will still be very powerful.
     
  13. MortalKombat3

    MortalKombat3 Member

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    Or maybe just increase its CD, or interval between bolts?
     
  14. BloodRampage-

    BloodRampage- Member

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    i actually have no idea why nimbus ministun was buffed into a real stun... i can live with global numbus but that stun duration is way retarded
     
  15. mapdesigner

    mapdesigner Member

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  16. kamukag3e

    kamukag3e Member

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    @mapdesigner:
    You are a DotA player, you have no friends.
    Also - there is new patch every 2 weeks ...
     
  17. Oesile

    Oesile Member

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    Some people actually remember i exist!

    As for Nimbus also being a global spell on a hero that already has global presence, well, I think that does make sense. Especially considering his aura won't proc globally too it's something that makes the hero multifaceted and capable of fulfilling an unique role in comp- before this Zeus was just nuking damage with some deward, now he's a global threat as well (that also reveals invis in fights).

    Makes the hero capable of doing more things (esp when in a way they are improved versions of what he already does) while not touching on his weaknesses is great.
    Stopping TP's and channeling spells globally is also top notch utility.
     
  18. ThunderTF2

    ThunderTF2 Member

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    Uhm.
    Didnt they say that this "thing" is over and patches would be irregular and focused on next TI balance fixes?

    Top notch utility...ugh
    You mean OP?
    Why was ES considered OP in pro matches? Cuz of "insta" fissure stun coming from afar.
    What does Zeus do? Almost the same, but even better:
    1) Reveals positions
    2) Gives True Sight
    3) Cancel ALL blinks (well, doesnt pierce BKB, Smoke and Magic Shields)
    4) Can follow initial reveal\blink cancels with Nimbus to prevent initiaton, channelings and retreats.
    and so on.

    For example - Spectre, even with Radiance doesnt cancels blinks instantly (does not attack instantly).
    "The illusions start attacking their targets 1 second after being spawned."

    So theres a pretty obvious suggestion coming out:
    Nimbus should be channeled by Zeus (1 second? EVEN 0.5 should be fine)
    Should be invulnerable while channeled.

    This, pretty much 1 thing, would balance him a bit, but wouldnt make him unplayable.
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2018 at 2:03 AM
  19. kamukag3e

    kamukag3e Member

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    @ThunderTF2:
    Yes, but it's over when it's over. I mean before they stop releasing patches in quick succession for good why would someone (as a user) expect the patches not being released.

    On the topic of Zeus, I really think his Nimbus is currently really powerful. I don't even think he needs to be played on a core position, even support Zeus, getting his Scepter have incredible impact over a game.
     
    ThunderTF2 likes this.
  20. ThunderTF2

    ThunderTF2 Member

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    Exactly.
    But Zeus, currently doesnt really fit to be tier 1 support.
    W is great for support.
    E and R... is fine. Scouting and Area hp% dmg - should be fine.
    But Q, imo, too weak. If enemies ahead - They have pipe to nullify this damage and it would prolong the inevitable loss.
    If you are ahead - You would only use Q to proc E.
    Idk, Smth like Storm Cloud \ Ball Lightning themed ability that affects enemies in certain area would look better.
    For example - Medium area (Bigger than Viper's Nethertoxin) of Electrified Air that strikes lightnings (not chaining) for each action enemy does (1 attack - 1 hit, 1 move outside the area - 1 hit, 1 item \ ability use - 1 hit, 30 moves with autorepeat rightclick - dead?)
    Sounds cool... cool enough to create another concept from this piece!