1. Hello and welcome to the brand new home for PlayDota!
    Please read through our Welcome thread to see what's new!
    Dismiss Notice

[Common] Greenhorn's Suit

Discussion in 'Item Ideas' started by HHHNNNGGG, Oct 16, 2017.

  1. HHHNNNGGG

    HHHNNNGGG Member

    17,617
    386
    83
    Sep 21, 2010
    [​IMG]
    Greenhorn's Suit
    --COMMON--

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG] + [​IMG] + [​IMG]
    150 + 150 + 150
    :gold: 450​

    Basic equipment for beginners

    Bonuses:
    +4 all stats (+1)
    Safe Mode (active)​

    Safe Mode (active):
    Grants 8 additional attribute points to non-primary attributes for 12 seconds. While on cooldown and Safe Mode duration ends, this item's bonuses will be null.
    This item when grants 8 Strength/Intelligence also increases current health/mana by 160/88 points.
    This item when loses its stats, the bearer also loses 160/88 current health/mana when losing 8 Strength/Intelligence, and also loses an additional 80/44 current health/mana when the item's bonuses are null. This can reduce up to 240 current health and 132 current mana and cannot kill.
    When the cooldown is off, the bearer regain 80/44 current health/mana.​

    :cooldown: 30s​

    Oct 16th, 2017: Item created.

    Credit: @summer-penguin for the icon
     
  2. Jabutosama

    Jabutosama Member

    289
    102
    43
    Apr 15, 2015
    It would be boring without the "non-primary attribute" restriction. It makes non-str heroes tankier and non-int heroes more capable while buffing agi's healtha and mana.

    Pretty much all heroes could make use of this, but is never necessity. Wow.
     
  3. ThunderTF2

    ThunderTF2 Member

    120
    5
    18
    Dec 27, 2011
    OP
    540 gold, +4 all stats, no active ability
    I dont think that this item can ever be balanced in "common" section.
    I highly doubt that it would ever be balanced in "artifacts" section.
    Sorry, but this is how it is.
     
  4. MindTrickZ

    MindTrickZ Member

    488
    29
    28
    Sep 24, 2009
    I like the recipe the execution of concept. Dont know about balance. This item could have new upgrades. Be part of Power Treads, and maybe its active could act as PT's. T-UP.
     
  5. HHHNNNGGG

    HHHNNNGGG Member

    17,617
    386
    83
    Sep 21, 2010
    That's why it is a Common Greenhorn's Suit. Advanced players can easily make use of it to mid-game, while new players can enjoy easy stats then sell it off when they can access to higher-tier items.

    HoN is not a basis for Dota 2's balance. Sorry, but the powercreep has overtaken Dota 2 since long time.

    A Null Talisman grants 3 all stats with 3 additional Int and 3 damage with 470 gold. Null is way stronger than that HoN's item.

    I think that it is quite balance. The duration is just right, and the downside afterward can be a bit bad when mismanaged. Fairly strong in the hand of advanced players, since a direct HP heal of 160 HP can save you in an instant.

    When it has an upgrade, however, I'll have to readjust the stats a bit. Probably -1 all stats and -3s duration or something.
     
  6. ThunderTF2

    ThunderTF2 Member

    120
    5
    18
    Dec 27, 2011
    @HHHNNNGGG
    Thats just an example about how strong your concept.
    Item that cost less than single null\bracer\wband, but does more than 3.
    Heres my suggestion:
    recipe:
    wb+null+bracer \ gauntlet+slippers+mantle
    stats - irrelevant
    active - doubles item bonuses, but however afterward the passive bonuses will be disabled while the ability is on cooldown.
    duration - 4-6-8 (choose 1)
    Double stat bonuses from item for the first 1-2 seconds, but decreasing to 0 over the next 2-3/4-5/6-7 seconds.
     
  7. HHHNNNGGG

    HHHNNNGGG Member

    17,617
    386
    83
    Sep 21, 2010
    That HoN example isn't a good example. HoN is a different game.

    I don't like having stats gradually reducing. It is quite an unnecessary feature.

    The item's active also doesn't provide +8 main attribute points, which means no +8 damage for you. Strength heroes can't enjoy the HP bonus; Agility can't gain important DPS boost; and Int's mana stays the same. Its purpose for each attribute is entirely different even though it aims for the same thing (providing what they usually lack the most); as such, it creates more diversity in gameplay.

    Doubling stats isn't that strong when it is momentary, because this item isn't supposed to have big stats bonus at that cost. Frankly at most it can save your ass from being killed once, but there is Faerie Fire for that purpose, or Magic Wand, which is roughly at the same cost while regening more.

    The main purpose of this item is to provide strong burst of stats; unlike Treads gimmick this item reinforces your weakness directly: Strength heroes lacks armor for physical defense, attack speed to make use of their big attack damage, and extra mana to use their abilities more frequently; Agility heroes, aside from their usual lack of Int, also suffers from low HP; Intelligence heroes generally have low HP and armor, while their ranged attack can still benefit from extra attack speed.

    Null, Bracers and WB are actually stronger than this item, since you can get access to later upgrades like RoA, Atos or Veil. This item can only be too strong because of its stats, which can be adjusted, and only if it has an upgrade.
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2017
  8. ThunderTF2

    ThunderTF2 Member

    120
    5
    18
    Dec 27, 2011
    I mean, who would ever build soulring on non-int hero if this item comes to the game?

    Agi version provides more than Soul Ring (no hp drain, str (regen, hp. much needed for agi heroes) + int (mana, spellamp, manareg) boosts)
    Any whys to skip this on low int\mana, low hp agi hero?

    Str version, again - does more than Soulring (+ agi (a-speed, armor, much needed for str heroes) boost)
    Any whys to skip this on low int\mana, low armor str hero?

    Int version - Raw durability boost.
    Any whys to skip this on squishy int hero?

    Im not making any hero examples, you must know them.

    Remember 10 necrobooks games?

    Such concept should be aviable to buy for pos 5 (or lowest NW \ gpm or highest death score) hero.
    Thats why i suggested you such recipe (3 low tier stat commons)
    p.s.: Maybe +magic wand into recipe.
     
  9. HHHNNNGGG

    HHHNNNGGG Member

    17,617
    386
    83
    Sep 21, 2010
    Actually Soul Ring is still stronger. The regen it provides is 100x better than the abysmal amount that Strength and Int provides. 0.48 HP regen vs. 3 HP regen and 0.32 mana regen vs. 50% mana regen? An instant 150 mana (more than measly 88) which gives you access to a spell for the cost of 150 HP that can be regenerated by the item itself during the cooldown? Also the access to Bloodstone at mid game?

    You are talking more about numbers than concept. This item's concept is pure stat influence that helps reinforcing a hero's weakness, so the concept isn't that gamebreaking in any sense. If it is imbalance, I can easily lower the number. However, in my honest opinion, atm it is at right spot. As I said before, it is lacking an upgrade - if it receives an upgrade, a small number nerf will suffice.

    You are also overestimating this item. Any hero with decent stat gain can easily ignore the item (but having one doesn't hurt). There are other early purchases (namely Bracers and WB, while Null is fairly weak but wev) that are slightly more expensive but can be built to very strong items. There is nothing can stop a squishy Int hero to purchase a Bracer for later Atos, or Null for trading damage in lane before going for Veil/Dagon. Agility heroes can enjoy a Bracer to build into Drum later, or a WB that greatly boosts their damage before having a superior RoA. Strength casters who thirsts for mana can go for either some Bracers for late Atos, one or two Nulls toward Veil, or even for a sick play with Dagon.

    There is Magic Wand that solves all problems for all kinds of heroes. On the other hand, this 450g investment is just decent at best. Somebody already said that all heroes can easily use this item, but it is not a necessary purchase.

    Finally, having 10 Greenhorn's Suit is at most a Poor Man's version of mass Mekansm in old DotA at most, and it is fairly weak compare to real mass Mek or mass Necro.