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[Buff] Tiny

Discussion in 'Remakes' started by HHHNNNGGG, Aug 18, 2017.

  1. HHHNNNGGG

    HHHNNNGGG Member

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    Avalanche's damage level 4 from 300 to 340 (increment 80 damage like other levels).
    Grow! now increases Toss damage to 40/60/80% (from 35/50/65%). Aghanim no longer increases Toss damage.
    Aghanim's Scepter Cleave damage increased from 50% to 40/50/60%.
    Aghanim's Scepter now increases Toss damage versus building from 33.33% to 50% (dealing 37.5/75/112.5/150 damage).
    Level 20 Talent +14 mana regen changed into +15% cooldown reduction.
    Level 20 Talent +25 attack speed increased to +40.
    Level 25 Talent +20% cooldown reduction changed into:
    Idea 1: Craggy Exterior triggers on ranged heroes.
    Idea 2: Craggy Exterior procs cast mini-Avalanche on target with halved damage.
    Level 25 Talent +200 Avalanche damage changes into Toss affects all nearby enemies.​

    Explanation:
    Due to many changes recently, notably Strength/HP changes, Raindrop, Talents, etc., Tiny's nuke potential is diminished a lot. That's why buffing level 4 Avalanche damage should solve the problem. It also removes the bizarre scaling.
    Both level 20 Talents are too weak; mana regen is obsolete late game while +25 attack speed is way too low with that innate attack speed slow from Grow! and low Agility. That's why I buff the number of the attack speed Talent while changing mana regen into CDR Talent.
    I separate Grow! Toss bonus damage from Aghanim's Scepter and buff Cleave damage. It makes caster build less dependent on Aghanim's Scepter, while Aghanim's Scepter becomes fully carry/push build. Extra damage from Toss to buildings becomes juicy since it takes out a chunk of HP from tower while Tiny can just Toss from afar, dealing easy yet not-so-cheap damage on highground defense.
    The CDR Talent I moved from level 25 will be replaced with one of my two ideas. Idea 1 makes Craggy Exterior effective against ranged heroes - regardless of range. This will be quite broken but fairly situational, as it is used to counter ranged carries - no ranged carries, barely effective. BKB and Break still counters Craggy Exterior as usual. Idea 2 will cast a mini-version of Avalanche that stuns, deals 50/90/130/170 damage in 275 radius, making the ability more effective versus melee carries. Focusing on Tiny can result in bad repercussion to the whole team if Tiny is at the middle of enemy's formation. Stun obviously doesn't stack on Craggy Exterior's own but the damage can double up on Toss.
    I also changed the Avalanche Talent into Toss Talent, since 17s cooldown of the ability makes the bonus damage not so much useful. Toss gains more utility/teamfighting value while you can deal double Avalanche damage to all affected units.
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2017
  2. asokaaso2

    asokaaso2 Member

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    One of the unpicked heroes hahaha I agree with you because of that cheap raindrops, his early game potential has decreased alot. Instead of mini-avalanche, change it to allow Tiny to cast toss to the nearest two units might be better.
     
  3. Oesile

    Oesile Member

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    Or go full baller and have Tiny toss everything in the radius :O
     
  4. HHHNNNGGG

    HHHNNNGGG Member

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    @asokaaso2 @Oesile doing so will create two "caster" branches of Talent which is not different from the current (+200 Avalanche damage vs. 20% CDR).

    I'm going for a different approach. It is defense vs. offense, or caster vs. carry. Other Talent reworks also go for this approach.
     
  5. Oesile

    Oesile Member

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    TBH the +200 Avalanche damage talent is awful, and it's not like the mini-avalanche supports carry Tiny that much. Tiny desperately needs armor, so why not go with that instead? Less original perhaps, but Tiny needs it much more (as mini-avalanche is countered in the same way as Craggy, it won't save tiny from enemy carries).
    +20 Armor seems rock solid.
     
  6. asokaaso2

    asokaaso2 Member

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    i think the lvl 25 talent must be Hitter Vs Caster

    I agree with the +20 armor or my toss idea

    Why toss is better than avalanche? well from what I know, tossed units receives double avalanche damage which will deal more damage instead of only 1 unit. To make it balance, multiple tossed units only deals 30% of the original damage but deals full damage when only 1 unit was tossed.
     
  7. Oesile

    Oesile Member

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    Because Avalanche has a 17 second cooldown. Even with the +200 damage being doubled to +400 burst, it's not good enough for a hero to only attempt one thing once per 17 seconds- with AOE toss you can get double avalanche damage on all targets.
    The way I had it in mind was that it worked like OD's astral and that the damage from multiple tossed targets didn't stack (but I intended it to toss everything so yeah, even with 30% that'd be broken).
    Still, imagine how cool it would be for a giant to toss entire teams. You'd really feel like Tiny's R I P P E D.
     
  8. HHHNNNGGG

    HHHNNNGGG Member

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    I think that the lack of armor is one of Tiny's weaknesses. It is kind of bland to remove this weakness from him via Talent. Not that it isn't a bad thing for the design, just my personal preference.

    AoE Toss can be a bit too strong (see DotA IMBA) but it can replace +200 Avalanche damage.
     
  9. HHHNNNGGG

    HHHNNNGGG Member

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  10. flamegod0

    flamegod0 Member

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    what about making the tossed target bounce one more time at target location? (basically dealing twice the damage and maybe extra damage on avalanche? (and about extra 0.4 sec of toss stun))
    Sounds quite good (and because toss have less cd)
     
  11. HHHNNNGGG

    HHHNNNGGG Member

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    Toss' duration is long enough for Avalanche to deal double damage (1.3s vs 1s). Bounce again can be good as it doubles Toss damage, but then if you Toss an ally that ally will be disabled twice the time, which isn't really good.
     
  12. justsightseeing

    justsightseeing Member

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    for what its worth, dendi have been using tiny in FPL with some success. previous buff is clearly do the magic.

    TBH tiny issue is early game whereas he get low manapool for instagibb combo while introduction of raindrops also cuts its early killing potential. I think he need a bit early game buff instead of late game (lv 20 and 25 talent) buff..

    but the avalanche part is acceptable..
     
  13. asokaaso2

    asokaaso2 Member

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    Hmm, probably from 120 avalanche manacost to 90/100/110/120 just like Toss.
     
  14. HHHNNNGGG

    HHHNNNGGG Member

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    IMO Avalanche buff (and somehow the manacost buff that @asokaaso2 suggested above) can be helpful, but only to nuker Tiny. Nuker Tiny is also lacking at late game while carry Tiny is just too fragile versus enemy carries despite the big damage. That's why I suggest to buff both.

    I think that Tiny's concept of lacking mana for one combo at level 2 is his uniqueness. His potential is fairly big (Toss can displace enemies to disadvantage position which is sick af). Avatoss is also great if enemy doesn't have Raindrop. Mana issue should be his problem. Removing it would change his uniqueness.
     
  15. asokaaso2

    asokaaso2 Member

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    Hmm makes sense but we should really rework his early game potential to build the "carry" build later on.
     
  16. flamegod0

    flamegod0 Member

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    what about 15% toss or ava on autoattack at lvl 25 talent?
     
  17. HHHNNNGGG

    HHHNNNGGG Member

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    Dota IMBA?

    That actually sounds sick since Toss disables through Spell Immunity and Ava is an AoE stun.
     
  18. flamegod0

    flamegod0 Member

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    Haha. not from dota IMBA idea though. But i guess it would be quite a worthy lvl 25 upgrade that can still be countered by magic immunity (except toss air time). Maybe extra animation when it procs like tiny slams the groud super strong that avalanche is forming/tossing enemies into the air
     
  19. HHHNNNGGG

    HHHNNNGGG Member

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    That's a bit too good, IMO. Tiny, regardless of his build (carry/nuker), is still a core. Rarely a core has a powerful level 25 Talent since it is easy for them to reach level 25.