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[Buff] Broodmother

Discussion in 'Remakes' started by doomboy, Jan 23, 2017.

  1. doomboy

    doomboy Member

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    as of new patch, it doesnt affect brood's winrate at all, so it seems a huge buff is necessary to bring her back into DOTA again,
    i can handle a hero having 40% winrate, but below that is wayy too low, borderline unplayable, even, worse is that brood isn't a support (support playing good and being good still cant win a game, not without a decent carry).

    a buff broods need is +150 spawn spiderling damage instead of 75 and +75 attack speed as one of her talent replacing a level 20 or 25 talent, that amount of attack speed will make vlad + her ult combines together and make brood nearly unkillable. AND OH, remove orb effect, seriously, it doesnt even offer much, if you want to keep the orb effect, at least make it slow attack speed too.
     
  2. FightFightFight

    FightFightFight Member

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    That's why she has 2.5 STR gain and only 2.2 agility (less then Magnus and Night Stalker)? If you want to look from the lore perspective, her skillset is already very bad, beyond save. Why does the web speed you up, instead of entanging enemies?

    Get the facts straight, Brood makes no sence as agility hero. Lifesteal and Incapacitating Bite is only effective in prolonged engagements, she needs to out-tank initial barrage of nukes and enemy carries' BKB duration in order to make meaningful use of these skills. So she definitely needs both survivability and damage. If someone builds Yasha or Manta that does not mean it's efficient build, there's just no other choice for damage. It's not about making certain items viable, it's about giving a hero efficient itemization.

    Back in a days when spiders dealt non-shit damage to towers, or with 6.79 broken webs, nobody cared about her main attribute. Now she really needs that change to have a place in game, unless you are willing to get rid of lifesteal and replace it with somethink that fits this new vision-crippling concept.
     
  3. summer-penguin

    summer-penguin Moderator Staff Member

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    I wish we could work her out as an agility hero.
    Concept and thematically, she feels as fit to be an AGI hero, as she's fit to be a STR hero... in my opinion.
    A couple things feel AGI wise, like hiding between webs, invisible, like being a hunting spider; but at the same time, her size, her bluntness of style, her theme as a broodmother, is all STR.
    But strength hard laners... Gosh, we have plenty.
    I know it's fussy, I know, it is. But I really wish we could work her out as an AGI hero.
    That being said, right now, without actually thinking it through, I do believe that making her a STR hero would most certainly fix her winrate, to something above 40%, no doubt.
    No doubt that becoming a STR hero would favor her concept and playstyle a lot more.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2017
  4. doomboy

    doomboy Member

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    she relies too much on spells. that's the problem why he doesnt fit as an AGI hero.

    a buff i have in mind is to add a passive to spawn spiderlings or Insatiable Hunger, still dunno what it will be, though, but a simple
    damage increase will help so much, even if it's maybe only +20 dmg or aspd. either this or through talent

    changing level 15's talent of +200 Health to +60 damage, combined with +50 ASPD on level 20 (That by all means should be increased to 65 ASPD), can make brood not rely on her kids so much. she's a mother, after all, she should be taking care of her kids and not the other way around.
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2017
  5. FightFightFight

    FightFightFight Member

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    If you want to make her work as agility hero, i beleive the remake must target her ultimate first. Webs are weird, but they do their job. As for lifesteal, it's not bad at all, it just pushes her too much into the brutal manfighter instead of stealthy hunter that people expect her to be. I currently have the following idea.
    - Make her ultimate increase base damage so she can make use of Manta Style. (Reduce the value slightly)
    - Get rid of lifesteal, and replace it with something like old bloodbath, a heal for each unit dying around. It's overused concept but it makes more sence on Brood, since her spiders own creepwaves resulting in pretty good sustain.
    - Then some of your ideas can be implemented as talents.
     
  6. summer-penguin

    summer-penguin Moderator Staff Member

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    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2017
    Jon likes this.
  7. Oesile

    Oesile Member

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    Meaningless statistic. Arc warden has better INT and STR gain than AGI but he's still an AGI hero with a shitty 1.8 stat gain. Sniper is AGI but he actually has higher INT gain, should he be an INT caster instead?
    Stat gain should never be an argument.
    And what does this have to do with being Strength or Agi? If anything it does make sense that she's Agi because of how slippery she is in general. Web speeding you up instead of slowing enemies is for gameplay purposes, otherwise she couldn't have her invulnerable webs everywhere because it'd be stupid.
    Your opinion is not a fact. You say she makes no sense as an agility hero, yet Brood is super fast and moves at almost max MS, and a stealthy hero, while many other quickfooted manfighters are also Agi like Troll Warlord, Ursa and PA (which all incidentally buy lifesteal).

    Or you can use her webs to and weave in and out of the fight like a Weaver with max MS? Are you telling me that all manfighting agility heroes are supposed to be strength instead? I'd rather Troll Warlord stay AGI, thank you. Razor also has to out-tank the initial barrage of nukes for his static link to become effective, should he become Strength too for no reason?
    Honestly the only thing brood gets out of being Strength is Armlet. Why arbitrarily change her attribute just for 1 item, when you can just fix the hero instead?

    And if it's Armlet it suddenly is? Brood really doesn't have to go Yasha either, Desolator is fine too and regardless she wants a BKB. She sometimes even gets Orchid too. Want to beef up? Skadi is great too.
    Making her Strength is a nerf unless she gets an Armlet. And that goes for almost every other Agi hero in the game too.
    Besides, Agility is the more efficient stat to get for rightclickers, which is why Strength heroes get an absurdly cost efficient item in Armlet.

    Why even care now? You even point out that spiders dealing non-shit damage is an issue, why not address that instead of just making Armlet mandatory on brood?
     
  8. FightFightFight

    FightFightFight Member

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    Just to be clear, i'm not entirely against keeping Broodmother as agility. I'm only trying to tell that it will require significant changes to her skillset, while making her strength can be treated as a quick fix. Yeah, some agility heroes you mentioned can indeed benefit from becoming strength heroes, but that's beyond the scope of this thread.
     
  9. Oesile

    Oesile Member

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    My point is that they don't outside of Armlet. They are worse if they don't have armlet.
    Agility heroes are often great manfighters because they are agility (as agility is the best stat for manfighting others). I don't consider it a quick fix, but rather a lazy change that essentially says "Get Armlet" when Brood can be so much more.

    She won't need significant changes to her skillset either. Just give her a buff that makes her actually survive in lane (she was supposed to be this strong laner but in reality she is easily shut down and needs levels desperately), as simple as +2 armor. Bam, hero can actually survive in lane now and doesn't die the moment someone stands in the middle of her web and pops dust. Or buff her natural hp regen, like Earthshaker's.
    If Brood is allowed to dominate her lane again by letting her get level 3 really fast, and can actually contest the safelaner or pulls from the get go, she'll be viable again. Currently Faceless Void is a stronger nuisance than Brood.
    With 2 extra armor Brood has 4.57 armor at level 1. So from 13% physical damage resistance she gets 22%.
    Stout shield, 4.57 armor and 2.74 hp regen in web make her a pest that is hard to remove and that can actually trade with opponents. As of right now when I lane against a Brood I can harass her with ease.

    Now that you can get sents one by one, Brood can start with Stout, 2x Tangoes, Fairy fire and a sentry. That's a lot of really nice regen, it can be incredibly powerful combined with an armor buff. Or she can get Iron Talon, tangoes and just get a sentry from her support.

    Monkey King just lost 3 armor and, dare I say it, his laning is dead.
     
  10. N1ceB0at

    N1ceB0at Member

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    Using dotabuff statistics to evaluate how strong a hero is is totally wrong, most part of the player don't even know play dota decently.

    As a broodmother player( more than 600 games) i don't see those changes necessary, this hero is very strong this patch.

    Broodmother is one of the few offlaners able to win her lane against three heroes, which means she does not need any buff on her lanestage.

    Your talent tree is really very strong and fits on hero concept. 25% xp very useful to get a imba xp diference against all other heroes if you win your lane or at lest try to comeback if your lane were not good af all; + 20% cooldown reduction is good with some items ( orchid, midas, manta+rad spam) and webs and Insatiable Hunger; +50 Attack Speed is all she needs in this stage of the game, combined with Insatiable Hunger and Incapacitating Bite, +8web always, this hero is totally dependent of the web so this is a great talent.

    Imo some buffs she could receive is:
    While using Insatiable Hunger she can cross the tree without restriction, maybe an aghanins.
    Remove the "weaker spiderling"( provided by last hits) and let the "stronger Spiderling" with a little bit more damage.
    An Agha but pls osfrog do something usfeful.
     
  11. FightFightFight

    FightFightFight Member

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    Indeed the problem not with her lane stage, no idea why folks want to bring up that. Brood is, of course, able either to win any lane or resort to jungle after lvl3, in 90% of games. Thing is, she can't do anything with that advantage. She's like Terrorblade/Luna before Manta was made compatible with their spells, lacking a way to spend her gold efficiently. You can go for Manta/Necrobook, but your tower damage still sucks big ass. You can go for Orchid, but you didn't even have enough damage to prevent enemy from teleporting away. You can go for BKB+Deso, but you are still kited to death or smashed by real right-clickers. BKB+Echo sounds like a way to go, but that's still not enough damage to carry.
    i believe spiders were crippled on purpose in 6.7X, since pushing strats were bullshit. You could just've picked Brood+mass auras and roll over any team w/out counterpush heroes. Brood is clearly developed towards a fighter recent times, not a pusher. I do agree that spiderites are annoying to always micro out of fights since they do nothing except feeding enemy shittonnes of gold, lol.
     
  12. N1ceB0at

    N1ceB0at Member

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    About her main attribute, of course have agility as her main attribute is much better than strength since the difference of stats gain is minimum, so the damage added by attributes is insignificant. Also "agility items" are better than "strenght items" in almost all carrys concept because all "agility items" provides damage and attack speed to agility heroes such as butter, manta, difusal. There are no items that justify her main attribute changes.

    Manta is a good item on Broodmother, the dispel is very nice on her( dust, some slows, silence, projectiles), have a good interaction radiance and Incapacitating Bite, provides good stats for a agility hero and extra movespeed which is very helpful if you don't have webs to walk.

    This patch we have one of her strongest version, her talent tree is really good, belive me soonly she will enter on pro scene.
     
  13. FightFightFight

    FightFightFight Member

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    No, Manta is not that good (unless it's 50 minutes into the game of course). Her iilusions do jack shit as they does not inherit any of her spells. Dispelling Dust is the least concern. I don't remember if BKB dispels it, but it does not matter: if you are running away with 100% lifesteal hero you are already useless for a team. Radience is not an argument, everyone is strong with Radience. She's not played in position allowing to get Radience with decent timings.

    Agility items are mostly late game items, so having more or less damage does not affect its viability. -30 damage does not make your 50 mins Bfly weaker does it? It's not fantastic that even str heroes buy Manta in late game. While gaining +10 damage from 15 mins BKB/Echo surely makes difference at that game stage. Agility works with "kill enemy faster then he can retaliate"-style carries, such as Void/Jugger/Sniper etc. Broodmother is _NOT_ this kind of hero. She simply does not pack good DPS and webs aren't even close to real escape spell. She's bound to always tank damage herself, and survivability items are always a priority.

    a man can dream...
     
  14. Oesile

    Oesile Member

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    They get incapacitating bite.

    That's a very broad statement. Brood can easily weave in and out of fights with maximum movement speed, and no one even mentioned running away. Being invisible means you can get to the backline, and perhaps kill supports.

    Treads, Yasha and Ring of Aquila would like to have a word with you.
    Of course it does, which is why only Agility heroes buy it. Nerfing an item's damage by 50% really kills it.

    Treads is gotten much earlier and gives you +9 attack speed when on Agi. A poor man's shield gives 6 agility, which is 6 damage and 6 attack speed, and is also gotten much earlier. Aquila is another great option, and it gives a nice armor aura for your spiders too.
    So yup, you can benefit from agi earlier than Strength.

    Chaos Knight, Alchemist, Dragon Knight, Tiny.. Once upon a time even Centaur got it. Besides, a casual Yasha is already great value.

    Do you know what Agility does? Also, that's again an incredibly broad statement. Medusa, Naga, Spectre, PL, Luna, Razor and Viper still benefit much more from agility. That's because agility is the best stat for right-clicking in the game.

    You run at max movement speed in webs and are invisible like Weaver, but you even get free pathing. How's that not a real escape spell?
    As for DPS, making her Strength just makes it worse.
     
  15. N1ceB0at

    N1ceB0at Member

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    Broodmother has two peak, the first one is during her early game, spaming spiderlings to killling heroes, destroying towers and create space (4~18min).

    Before that get kills and towers become way more dificult, enemies will group more and will have sufficient levels/items to deal against spiderling, also Broodmother on this stage is an easy target if catched alone.

    The second peak is few minutes later (25~35min). she might be on top networth, she will have some survivibility items or at least two big items such as Orchid+BKB or Rad+Manta or Dagger+Sabre+BKB which together with Insatiable Hunger and Incapacitating and attack speed talent can deal a lots of right click damage also outcarrying many carrys, especially those without BKB ( Her lifesteal and miss chance is insane).

    So, by saying Broodmother have no DPS is totally wrong, of course she is not like other tradicional carry but she is pretty decent.

    About Manta, combined to radiance you can farm around 8~12 creeps per minute. Many times you don't need a early BKB which is a fighter/escape item, manta might provide to you a suficient escape(dispel) or a way to chase a little better.
     
  16. doomboy

    doomboy Member

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    as many has said, she has no problem with laning, its just after early game, she'll have a problem in using the early advantages she have.

    my buffs will reduce her early stage in return to a stronger mid-late game, where having vision advantage can mean winning the war. but plenty other people have other ideas, as well...
     
  17. FightFightFight

    FightFightFight Member

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    so i can apply the same debuff three times, good news

    If you're strength, you don't need Poor Man's Shield or Ring Aquilla. you buy Urn and Helm of Iron Will which are miles better.

    Because it's bound to a limited area, giving enemy a clue about the direction you are escaping into; and if he is able to keep up with your MS you are fucked up. Webs are good for fighting since Incapacitating bites ensures enemy will stay withing the area for longer, but as escape tool it obviously does not match Shuckichi.

    Buying Radience+Manta on Broodmother to farm, is, hmm... weird to say the least. Unless of course it 6.83 patch where games last over an hour. She already got spiders to clear creepwaves around the map (the only thing they can do well). Too bad there's no reason to rice when you're worthless no matter the farm.
     
  18. Oesile

    Oesile Member

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    Some micro and you could apply the debuff to multiple heroes, just spitballing here.
    Even if brood were Strength she wouldn't get Urn anyway. , she has plenty of sustain and Helm of Iron will really isn't that good. Besides, as Helm of the Dominator exists agility heroes can just get a helm of iron will also.
    Poor Man's shield is also a great item, it offers more DPS than your suggested change would with a BKB or an echo sabre. And you can't seriously believe that Ring of Aquila is worse than a helm of iron will right? It's in an entirely different tier, which is why everyone builds it despite ring of aquila having no buildup after that.
    But apparently Brood should be strength because she can get Poor Man's shield dps with a bkb.

    It's permanent, and you can have 8 webs. You can cover half the jungle with this, and easily relocate with the 4 charges. Your 'area problem' is solved by a 0.4 cast animation during which brood will never have more downtime on her invis than Weaver, and if you set webs up beforehand not even that.
    Shukuchi happens to be one of the best skills in the game and I'm not contesting that, but webs are one of the best escape mechanisms in the game.
     
  19. N1ceB0at

    N1ceB0at Member

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    You can have soul ring + radiance + phase + echo sabre(opicional) + manta around 20~30 min if you are winning your lane or at least are not dying. Spiderling is good pushing only in the early stage, but before that, if you are not able to destroy their side Tower[3] or even Barracks( normally do siege is a fucking task) is better to back away and focus on farm, If start to die try to do siege alone only at this moment spiderlings become feedlings and broodmother become enemy midas.. With a little bit more items and levels you can do siege and kill heroes faster than few minutes before.
     
  20. MindTrickZ

    MindTrickZ Member

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    Changing her ultimate is relevant suggestion. Maybe swap ultimates with Lifestealer, it will be really good and synergistic considering my another Lifetealer remake.
    Maybe she can cocoon Enemy unit for 3 seconds and gain some buffs or spawn new mutant spiderling based on unit stats, kind of aliens.