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atack speed reduction

Discussion in 'Advanced Mechanics' started by vvjacobo, Sep 14, 2017.

  1. vvjacobo

    vvjacobo Member

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    How does this buffs stack in dota 2? With different skills and items. For example untouchable and neutral ogre ice armor.

    A side question, why does it feels it's totally imba early game but you start not noticing anything late game? I feel like that when playing enchantress.
     
  2. matrice

    matrice Member

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    You add everything, bonus and malus.
     
  3. vvjacobo

    vvjacobo Member

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    Why late game if people is not buying 2 hiperstones that -130 atack speed from enchantress feels it's not doing enough?.
     
  4. Avenar

    Avenar Member

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    Every hero has 100 base attack speed. Agility, items, abilities, talents, buffs, ... can increase AS. There are also ways to decrease AS, e.g. hitting Enchantress who has the skill Untouchable.

    If you calculate a hero's AS and you know its Base Attack Time (BAT, usually 1.7), you can calculate the time between 2 hits:

    Attack_time = BAT/AS*100

    Examples:

    A hero's attack time in early game assuming 200 AS:
    Attack_time = 1.7/200*100 = 0.85 seconds

    A hero's attack time in early game assuming 200 AS hitting an Enchantress who has level 4 Untouchable:
    Attack_time = 1.7/(200-130)*100 = 2.43 seconds

    A hero's attack time in late game assuming 400 AS:
    Attack_time = 1.7/400*100 = 0.43 seconds

    A hero's attack time in late game assuming 400 AS hitting an Enchantress who has level 4 Untouchable:
    Attack_time = 1.7/(400-130)*100 = 0.63 seconds

    Decreasing AS of an enemy hero is more effective if his AS is already low. Z01d's link has more information.
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2017
  5. vvjacobo

    vvjacobo Member

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    Thanks! This is what i wanted! So this means its much better to not choose reduce speed talent that late. It's what I was starting to experiment in games without really knowing why. Also late game people hit you with bkb which even reduces more that talent option, while the magic resistance one is always there.
    I remember in dota 1 that untouchable skill was not even leveled when it was ultimate and people could choose stats. I wonder if going shivas for the -atack speed is totally overrated then. I'm quite sure right now that assault late game will give more ehp for the team against atacks unless you have an already very very high armor.
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2017
  6. kamukag3e

    kamukag3e Member

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    @vvjacobo:
    From strategical point of view, 15% resistance is (hero's other talent choice) is useful only when facing heavy nukes from the enemy. If they have physical damage oriented lineup it's a waste no matter how efficient is increased slow in untouchable against Spell Immunity or high attack speed opponents.

    Also, while Spell Immunity and high attack speed to render your skill rather useless, they do the same with a lot of other skills.
    But only opponents with Spell Immunity will be able to penetrate the skill completely, while everyone else will still face the consequences - which is sometimes more than enough.
    Extremely high attack speed is still reduced by a lot. Untouchable with it's increased talent and Ice Armor will still reduce the attack speed of the enemy with 210 points which is quite a lot.
    A hero with 100 agility and additionally 110 points of attack speed from items will still attack you very slow and that's really high amount of those stats gathered. Even if it surpasses your slow, it will still hit you significantly slower than a hero without those features.

    Shiva's Guard is item, which gives plenty of stats, passive and active abilities. The aura alone is not such big of a thing, especially for it's cost - it comes when the enemy carries already have plenty of attack speed.
    Yet 45 points of attack speed is still significant and especially valuable against non-agility heroes, which can still do 200 or 300 damage per hit, but attack a lot slower then their agility counterpart.
     
  7. HHHNNNGGG

    HHHNNNGGG Member

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    Urgh... Why is the myth "decreasing attack of an enemy hero is more effective if his AS is already low" still widespread? This statement is just debatable like "stacking more armor is less effective".

    The attack speed reduction nets you the same DPS reduction in absolute value on that hero, giving other variables like BAT and attack damage does not change. Armor is also the same, providing you the same 6% physical EHP per armor.

    You "feel" like Untouchable's big value contributes nothing at late game is just because it is hard to see whether the difference between landing 9 attacks or 10 attacks in 5 seconds (figuratively speaking) is noticeable. Many carries attack so fast at late game that you don't "feel" the effect. However, it is still helpful. For a hero who has 1.7 BAT and 300 damage per attack in average it is 300x130/(1.7x100) = 229 DPS reduction. It is the same reduction on a hero with 200 attack speed (353 DPS), 400 attack speed (706 DPS) or 600 attack speed (1059 DPS), though in term of percentage it is not the same. For an Enchantress who has 2000 physical EHP, for instance, against 600 AS she dies in less than 2s but with Untouchable she lives 0.4s more which can allow her to survive via Force Staff/Pike after getting initiated on with Abyssal Blade. The 600 AS number is also very situational so the amount of time this ability buys for you can be longer, might reach even more than one second - and when fights lasts for only 6 to 10 seconds this is great.

    If you convert the effect in term of gold, you can see that Untouchable wastes more than a Moon Shard (4000 gold) on any attacker who harms Enchantress.

    It also affects chance-based attack modifiers like Basher and Crit. One attack can mean hit or miss for these attack modifiers, and you can reduce that one attack out by massively slowing down their attack speed. Delaying a Bash for even 0.1s can be decisive in a fight.

    Attack speed reduction is just as effective as any attack speed increment. Percentage-wise, the more attack speed you gain the less "effective" it becomes via diminishing return - despite the net DPS boost is constant. Rarely people stack so many attack speed aside from innate fast attackers.

    It is the same for Shiva. Despite the small value it actually goes well with the bulk of raw armor the item provides. Enemies attack slower, even if slightly, and facing the armor boost, the DPS reductions on you stack multiplicatively.

    If attack speed slow feels "weak" then virtually any attack damage reduction like Enfeeble or Atrophy Aura is also weak. Remember that attack speed has a cap and it is not the case for attack damage, and stacking it up is harder than attack damage - so even if the attack damage can reach 700 or more via Duel or Divine Rapier your attack speed can reach 400 or 500 at most.

    At late game everything falls off, not only attack speed reduction. Movespeed slow, soft disables, attack reduction, armor, armor reduction, tickling DoT, etc. This is because our "feel" calculate it based on the percentage gain and not on net gain - while in reality the net gain is what influences the whole thing. Being more cost-effective doesn't provide you the powerspike you need.

    Lion nukes for 1000 damage "feels" weak. It is because it doesn't instakill anymore with enemy HP goes beyond 2000 or 3000. However it deals 1000 damage in any situation. It still contributes to net gain and it does help your team shaving off that enemy's 1000 HP.


    TL;DR: Most time Enchantress gets blown up by BKB carries or nukers anyway so you shouldn't worry much about the attack speed reduction. It does its job well.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2017
  8. EebstertheGreat

    EebstertheGreat Forum Manager Staff Member

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    HHHNNNGGG is basically correct. Attack speed reduction only truly becomes less effective when it runs into boundary conditions. If the target already has less than 150 attack speed, then reducing it by 130 will still only bring it down to 20. So it is less effective in those instances. In the extreme case of an enemy attacking you already slowed down to 20 attack speed, Untouchable will effectively do nothing at all. Similarly, if the target has more than the maximum 600 attack speed, reducing it by 130 will be less effective, because some of that target's previously wasted attack speed is now being used. In the extreme case of a target with 730 or more attack speed, Untouchable will only reduce it to 600, which was already all it was actually benefiting from; in that case, Untouchable is useless unless another slow can be applied on top of it. But for any case in the middle, the slow is still equally valuable. It might feel less valuable when enemy carries become farmed enough to kill you quickly even in spite of the slow, but really the slow hasn't gotten any weaker, your opponents have just gotten stronger.

    TL;DR: Untouchable is not a scaling ability, so like all non-scaling abilities, it is usually not that strong in the late game.
     
  9. FightFightFight

    FightFightFight Member

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    Folks are getting the statement wrong, but not its sence. Of course the actual rule sounds like "decreasing AS is more effective the more damage enemy has", but it happens to be practically the same. It's not the absolute value matters, but damage/AS ratio.
     
    mapdesigner likes this.