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Alan, Master Thief from the East

Discussion in 'Hero Ideas' started by dewouter, Feb 9, 2018.

  1. dewouter

    dewouter Moderator Staff Member

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    Alan, Master Thief from the East

    [​IMG]

    Melee - Roamer - Semi-Carry - Support

      • ]
    • Alan learned to live with nothing and earn from others. At times he is so good at it, he makes more money than anyone else in the city. Sadly Alan sometimes doesn't get near anyone and his muscles get weaker, making it even harder to earn some money. He still might grab some rich guy and cripple him for his thieving friends. Alan might also require to use his magic boomerang,
      the one he stole from some old witch the other day. It's so pretty, even Alan can't stop looking at it at times.
      • [​IMG]
      • [​IMG]
      • [​IMG]
      • [​IMG]
      • [​IMG].

        +8 agility | 10 | +1 gold per pickpocket stack
        +300 vision | 15 | +25% Pickpocket MS slow
        + 50 accuracy | 20 | -5s boomerang cooldown
        +80 movespeed | 25 | Robbery has a 350 AOE Radius
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2018
  2. ThunderTF2

    ThunderTF2 Member

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    Q
    Pretty weak, feels like talent for BH's attack\abilities, not a standalone ability.

    W
    xcuse me?
    Confusing description

    R
    PD finest scourge - OP Anti-carry abilties.
     
  3. dewouter

    dewouter Moderator Staff Member

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    The worst part is that you are completely right but that I can't come up with anything better. Not coming up with anything with the best possible draw is sad too though. Your honesty and early opinion is very appreciated though
     
  4. duble_dragon

    duble_dragon Member

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    I dunno, that Q doesn't seem so weak early game to me. If it's physically "stealing" gold per hit, that is some reasonable nuisance to a chain stunned target just giving up all it's gold. It's worse than a death imo.
     
  5. ThunderTF2

    ThunderTF2 Member

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    IMO
    Whole "Thief" (Thiefery?) theme was worn through long time ago. Its not like there nothing left to work with, but its:
    1) Either OP and\or doesnt fit in whole dota concept (rofl)
    2) Way too simple
    3) Hard to balance
     
  6. NuclearCookie

    NuclearCookie Member

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    He doesnt have a choice when it comes to the name though.
     
  7. summer-penguin

    summer-penguin Moderator Staff Member

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    I'm kinda on board this.. but not as in "it cannot be done".
    I gave the matter some thought a while ago and after seeing what dota has become, after seeing concepts like Invoker's, Rubick's, Zet's, Tinker's, Techies', Morph's, etc. working so damn well, I changed my position.
    I believe that hardly any conceptual idea can trully be either too hard to balance or too weird to fit the game.

    A thief, for example.

    You should not take titles or thematic ideas all that literally when drafting a concept.

    An ability that mutes an inventory could easily suit a thief theme.
    Mute is already a part of the game, and yet it is only superficially explored.

    A nuke that impedes the hero killed by it from buying back (like that old and removed part from Reaper's Scythe) could also suit the thief theme. (as one would not be able to use its own gold and buy back).

    A scounting ability, of any sort, could, just as well. Like an invisible trap, that pings on the map, like our Radars do, whenever un-invisible enemy units step in.

    Stealing a very small amount of gold on every hit is also perfectly balanceable, and easily suited either to a mid hero, or to a supp (a babysitter), that would most definitely go mid as well.

    Also, a hero does not need to have all his four abilities limited to its theme and title.
    Why shouldn't a thief have access to some sort of invisibility? For example.
    Or summonings? Like a theif lord or something, calling out for his bandits. Simple summonings, good for pushing and lane controllability.

    Stuff like that.
    I haven't even checked dew's actual hero. I only saw the small discussion that's going on here.
    I'll check it later.. but here there are some pretty useable ideas, imo.
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2018
  8. ThunderTF2

    ThunderTF2 Member

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    @summer-penguin
    Pure "thievery" abilities + themated hero is just bad and baaaad.
    Some kind of "Thief" themed lore is okay and welcomed.

    You can also take "thievery" under different perspective.

    Few(?) examples:

    Lets start with ability name - Lost Legacy

    What could it possibly do?

    It could steal all chance based things from hero. Aka break that works on items (and abilities ofc)

    Lorewise... it would sound like that:
    "Even the most powerful artifacts become a simple trinket exactly at the moment as they stop thinking of something as powerful."

    Or as you said, it could simply mute items.

    Lore:
    "Perhaps all the ancient relics look like beautiful trinkets in the hands of simpletons."

    We can go even deeper...

    Ability that forces enemy heroes to change or loss some basic things he had or was known for:

    1. Main attribute, that would hurt most heroes. A LOT
    2. Attack Range (even if it would work only for range)
    3. Cooldowns penalty
    4. More and more.

    And what if turn inside out all my stuff?

    [​IMG]

    Ability name - Remember the Legacy(Legacy Ascent?)

    Enhances items\abilities in some ways. Additionally it may grant immunity to break\mute for some time.

    For example - PA, it would enhance 1(1?) of her items and 1(1?) of her abilties to:

    1) Items would have increased chance to proc, faster cd, etc.
    Abyssal Blade would grant either 20% damage reduction or 20% bonus status resistance or additional chance to bash and stun unaffected by status resistance.
    Mask of Madness would grant haste.
    etc.

    2) Abilties
    Q, would create new ability - Spectral Dagger Throw (Spectre = PA Slacks theory in da house), with some very few rescales, but mainly it would create path that turns PA invisible and unrevealable for some time\until she does attack enemies.
    W, would create new ability, well, not new...- Phantom Dash, to put it simple - Morph's Waveform that gives attack speed and attacks heroes on her path.
    E, for example would make non-missed attack to deal less damage\have 0 crit chance\multiplier
    R, for example would... idk, theres too much variaty here. She could have Bloodseeker's Thrist, part that shows low hp units and reveals them.

    Lorewise... hmhmhm....:
    "Even the most impossible peaks are achievable with the support of comrades." Sounds... clumsy. Do i care? Kappa

    p.s.:
    OMG.
    I just dig new talent tree.
    Tried to make this ability\ultimate balanced and find out that if every hero would enhance abilties with talents, then this ability would be sooooo much easier to balance and implent.

    For example.

    Next big update "Aghanim's Ascendancy", with some lore and stuff on his ascendancy.

    Main change: Every talent (even if they would be almost same as today, hopefully they wont even with this idea implented) would affect and upgrade abilties dependant on what path you choose (hopefully there would be more than 2 branches OR \ AND you can only choose 1 path)

    And heres how this ability would work - It would give your targeted ally upgrade on a random ability talent he discard \ doesnt choose.
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2018
  9. dewouter

    dewouter Moderator Staff Member

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    So much discussion for so little content :coffee:

    I guess I should dive deeper into what kinds of thieving there are.
    I went with the small melee range crimes like pickpocketing and mugging because that's easy.

    I could also explore arcane thievery, stealing spells/mana/whatever. This could even be a hero without :int: and only having a way of using spells/items is to steal it from enemies.

    I could make a thieving pet master, based on summons trained to steal things
     
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  10. Daddy Sven

    Daddy Sven Moderator Staff Member

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    Not so much weak, as it is limited. The ability is in fact pretty strong, but it requires complimentary abilities to make it work. Smth like Sleight of Fist, Swashbuckle or Boundless Strike. Getting a few reliable attacks, at a safe distance.

    However I'm not a fan of it as a whole. Reason being that balancing this would be a huge pain in the ass. On one hand it can either help you snowball too much and butcher a target's gold income or will be too weak to make any kind of difference.

    Let me help stir up your creative juices. I challenge you to a little duel. We both have by the end of the weak, to create a complete Thief themed hero. After that we'll make a poll to see who wins.

    If you win, I'll send you a gift over steam.
     
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  11. summer-penguin

    summer-penguin Moderator Staff Member

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    CTH, just got serious.
     
  12. dewouter

    dewouter Moderator Staff Member

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    That's almost like challenging a crippled for a run, but sometimes the underdog wins. I'm in!
     
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  13. Daddy Sven

    Daddy Sven Moderator Staff Member

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    That's the spirit!

    My challenger is up. I'll be waiting for update on your guy.
    Gerald - Master Rogue (WIP)
     
  14. dewouter

    dewouter Moderator Staff Member

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    Wow I have work to do
     
  15. summer-penguin

    summer-penguin Moderator Staff Member

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    That dmg.. is it basic dmg or starting dmg?
    If it's the latter, it looks quite too short.

    I think the second part of Pickpocketing is pretty bland, I would have it scrapped.
    Or, if you really want to keep it, make it actually meaningful, causing a (much) more significant movespeed slow.. 40% perhaps.

    Perfect Crime is the one that I didn't get.
    This "If Alan is performing this action, Alan won't be invisible" feels confusing. What action? Becoming invisible? That doesn't make sense.
    Also this "but Alan won't know this". How can you not know if you're invisible or not? I didn't get that either.
    Invisible you'll probably have a buff icon stating that you're invisible. But even if you don't get the buff icon, your model will naturally get that transparency effect if you do get invisible. Right?
    Is it passive or active?
    The description seems to describe a passive skill, but not only it has cooldowns, it also has a mana cost. It's weird. Is it active?
    I suppose it really is an active ability, since it has duration (what doesn't match its description) and a cast point.
    Also, invisibilities have either a fade delay or a fade time. Here.

    If it is an active ability though, I suggest you keep it w/ a 0.0 cast point, through all its levels.
    It already has a pretty crippling (and very thematic) limitation to its cast.
    Imo, it's asking too much to have it only working as most invisibilities do only on its latest level, specially since you'll have it w/ a 0.0 cast point later in the match anyways, when having an invisibility that does not break will actually be quite op.
    If you want something else to level w/ its levels, the movespeed buff is a good choice. 10%/15%/20%/25% would do just fine, imo.

    Boomerang is pretty straight foward. But I think you should nerf it a little bit. Either it's dmg, or the cast range, perhaps.
    It looks quite op right now. Pretty easy to hit twice. A piece of cake.

    Robbery is amazing. The idea of disabling items as if all its inventory slots were a part of its backpack is neat and simple. Receiving the stats, in the other hand, is not nearly as clean as that.
    It looks clunky. You picked movespeed, attributes, and regen to add to Alan. Why not flat Hit and Mana points? Why regen? Why not only the attributes? I don't know. Feels discretionary, and not equitable.
    Also, makes it quite op.
    I wouldn't like it if it had to have a much bigger cooldown. but w/ that secondary effect I feel like it has to.
    And the primary effect is already so fuckin' neat.

    What's this cast range buffer? Does it improve your cast range(s)? Why?
    Or does it improve its own cast range as it levels?
    If it's the latter you should just state that its cast range is 300/400/500. Right? I didn't catch that.

    Also, offensive dispels are only dispels (it doesn't matter if they would be basic or strong). The basic/strong distinction is only meant for friendly dispels.
     
  16. dewouter

    dewouter Moderator Staff Member

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    Hmm getting schooled on mechanics!

    It's damage without the stats, just like the armor is. It's fairly low because the hero starts with a lot of armor and will be able to trade hits with that.

    The slowing effects might be a little bad, or they should be changed to a ministun. Thought it was unfair that after stealing everything you now zone an enemy hero too. But he doesn't have to be there obviously.

    Anything can be manipulated and your team could see the fading and the transparency. I might remove the cast point, but it could give a great advantage in juking, but the time could be moved to fade time.

    Boomerang might indeed be very strong, I think either the stacking needs to be nerfed or the base damage. I would like to see the stacking rewarded so I'm thinking the latter.

    Regeneration might not be something to steal, I mentioned the movement speed because boots don't stack with each other in general and I wanted to keep that. The buffer range makes stealing on a actively moving target not too easy on lower levels.

    I'll update the values/other things based on your feedback later.
     
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  17. summer-penguin

    summer-penguin Moderator Staff Member

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    Whoa.. I did know about that, the motion buffer range, but not that there were abilities using different motion buffer ranges. (though seeing it now, it's pretty obvious that these two do have an extended motion buffer range).

    That's pretty cool, dew.
    Nice finding.
     
  18. Daddy Sven

    Daddy Sven Moderator Staff Member

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    Alright, I think this is a good time for me to put my review in as well.

    Pickpocketing:

    I'm really glad you added a second effect to the ability and that you've altered the gold scaling. However imo, you should switch the effects around. Right now it's way too hard to actually get a slow on a hero. You have to bank on them to waste all of their gold on the shop and immediately TP to the lane. That doesn't really happen much in a more competitive environment and as such your biggest victims would be low income supports.


    Right now, Dota doesn't have an ability with a stacking auto attack slow. Well, maybe Meepo, but his is still different. You can have the ability for example slow by 4/6/8/10% for 2.5 sec and be able to stack for 5 attacks (20/30/40/50% max slow) And on the 5th attack have your hero also steal Gold from the target, if it's a hero. All stacks get lost if the slow expires and Gold Stealing could for example occur only once every 10 seconds. This will give you a more reliable slow for trading hits and ganking and would make the gold stealing more fair and rewarding. 22/35/48/61g would be quite good.


    Perfect Crime:

    I'm still having trouble understanding this ability. Basically, if no enemy unit sees you, you become invisible and gain MS. If they get near you, you loose the invis but keep the MS. Is that correct? But if they don't see you to begin with, why would you need the invis? I'm having a lot of trouble understanding this skill, apologies.


    Boomerang:

    Definitely my favorite skill. I really enjoy unique disables, and this is definitely a unique one. I think you should make however a small mechanics tweak. "If the boomerang is out of vision the unit will move towards it" this part, I liked a lot and imo you should have units always follow the boomerang. However have the unit move at minimum movement speed.

    By doing so, you can use the ability at max range and have a unit move towards you or away from you, working like a pseudo hook or Boulder Smash. Also If you keep the projectile speed slow, you could just flat out remove the additional duration. That will work into balancing out the ability more, as it will be much harder to hit at max distance. In any case I really like this ability.


    Robbery:

    I feel like there is a missed opportunity here. On its own, it's a great effect, however I don't think it belongs on this hero. Reason being that he has only 2 active skills and 1 of them is already a self buff ( Perfect Crime), thus limiting his gameplay. I'm not against steroid skills, but as a hero who doesn't directly benefit from attributes or flat damage and doesn't have mana problems, this becomes only an EHP and right click boost for a very limited time.