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[Aghanim] Greater Marksmanship for drow

Discussion in 'Remakes' started by Skurai, Mar 5, 2018.

  1. Skurai

    Skurai Member

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    I am not sure why drow gets turned into a medusa type. Drow has proper nice hair and isnt ugly :(

    Greater Marksmanship (Aghanim)

    -Enemy hero search radius drops from 400 to 300
    -Every attack on an enemy that is within 300 range of drow pushes the target back by 150
    -Frost arrows becomes passive, slows for 64% as usual and silences target for 0.8 secs per hit.

    Usefulness:

    -She now gets to push her target away per attack away at 300 range into above 300 range which is the perfect spot for her to kill the enemy. The enemy is slowed and silenced. It is still countered if enemy can get close to her.
    -This covers her marksmanship weakness
    -Since frost arrows are passive, it also allows her to use 1 more orb effect. That might just be lifesteal from mask of madness since there are still many drow users that use mom despite it silencing her frost arrows.

    Edit: The knockback can be deactivated
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2018
  2. FightFightFight

    FightFightFight Member

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    I also don't understand why every ranged carry is turned to AoE carry. But i think Drow needs more then just scepter change.

    As for the auto knockback on attack, it has whole bunch of issues. Sometimes it can save you, sometimes - your enemy, because, you know,it can push target over trees or terrain obstacles into fog so you can't attack it, or just reduce the time window when you can land hits if enemy runs away. The existing expirience with Spirit Breaker's bash already demonstrates that. At the very least, the damn thing should destroy trees and be deactivable, because i'm pretty sure one would wish to deactivate it sometimes.
     
  3. Skurai

    Skurai Member

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    Agreed. The knockback can be deactivated though it rarely will be deactivated.
    It can only push targets that are hit within 300 range. So, it cant pushed enemy back that much.
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2018
  4. summer-penguin

    summer-penguin Moderator Staff Member

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    I like this ASU.
    But I don't think it'll work efficiently enough though.
    You're still a single target shooter. Yes you can keep one melee hero trying to reach you and fuck your armor bonus at bay. But that's only one.
    And you can still be disabled and caught and you'll drop dead faster than a creep just the same.
    It doesn't have to be the hero who's beating your ass the one who's close to you for Marksmanship to turn off.

    With this attack-based knockback you won't be able to keep more than a single hero away. And the moment one reaches you, you'll lose Marksmanship's dmg, armor and attackspeed. (and even movespeed now)
    I don't think it'll be good enough to waste a slot and 4000gp.
    Unless you're 1x1 against a melee hero, it feels like it'll be a waste.
    But it is indeed a remarkable tool to use if you're caught by a single melee enemy who doesn't move all that fast and who does not have the control to kill you before you start to attack.
    Otherwise you're nearly just as killable as you were. The paragon of a glass cannon.

    So, most times, as it seems to me, you'll be nearly as fragile and killable as always.
    What makes it very, very situational. (which is not necessarily bad)
    (but Drow needs some fix, imo)

    Gust and its talent already are attempts to give Drow this kind of survivability, and it does better. But still it doesn't do enough.

    I find Drow's current ASU trash. (from 20 guides that Dotabuff has on the Drow, only 2 are using the Scepter in their build)
    Differently from my remake, it does indeed try to make a Medusa out of the Drow. But very poorly.
    Your's much better.
    As buff, I'm ok w/ it.
    But I'm not sure it's enough. To put Drow's concept in a viable position.

    The passive thing to Frost Arrows is needless. It'll do nearly no difference.
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2018
  5. Daddy Sven

    Daddy Sven Moderator Staff Member

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    Giving her every attack a mini-gust and passive Frost Arrows which not only slow but also SILENCE is beyond broken and imbalanced.

    Not only does this make it borderline impossible for a melee hero to reach you, but you're also majorly screwing any hero who depends on abilities to CC/Deal damage and especially heroes with channel abilities.

    On top of that, it appears that you're still keeping the AoE spread of the current Aghs.
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2018
    summer-penguin likes this.
  6. summer-penguin

    summer-penguin Moderator Staff Member

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    Oh fuck.. I did not see that.
    Skurai may man.. slow down a little.
    :D:
    That's.. a lot.
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2018
  7. Skurai

    Skurai Member

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    Well u have gust to push multiple heroes away but only once.

    Drow is meant to be weak up close. With this agha, against 1 enemy, like an AM. Your drow can push the AM back and pretty much perma slow and silence and kill him in a 1v1. AM will not be able to even come close to u and he cant blink away due to silence. he can survive and possibly kill drow only with bkb. If 2 enemy heroes go after your drow, u will be countered and possibly dead. U can still try use gust, pike,etc to run away though. There is currently no ranged hero with a nice 1v1 concept though.


    U dont lose movespeed, only the agil buff, which is the same as now. Ranged agil like drow and sniper tend to always be fragile up close. Sniper is good by shooting from far. Drow should be good at pushing enemies away and she can be the 1v1 ranged specialist with this agha.


    Agreed that drow's current agha is just weird. The passive part is needed, so she can use items like mask of madness. I bet many drow users miss that.

    Just my 2 cents.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2018
  8. Skurai

    Skurai Member

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    Hmm i dont think it is broken though. It is 2 weak abilities put together.

    It is only 0.8 secs silence per hit. And the knockback only occurs if the target that is hit is within 300 range of drow. It does not knockback any target above 300 range of drow. That is around half drows attack range only. It will only work for a few hits out of many hits. Putting enemies in 300 range is in drow's killing zone since marksmanship works once enemy heroes are 300 range away



    Yes, a melee hero going up to drow 1v1 will lose unless he has bkb. Even an AM will juz be pushed back into 300 range and slowed and silenced to death without bkb. But bkb or multiple heroes counter this.


    Silencer used to have an ability that silences per hit and it silences like 3 secs per hit or something if i recall right. This is only 0.8 secs silence per hit and it pushes target back only to 300 range. It is 2 abilities but small ones. The passive frost helps save some mana. Currently, marksmanship is just too easily countered and i am not sure why they make her medusa-like.

    Many agha like jug agha has 2 bonuses after all. Lower cooldown and more slashes,etc

    Just my 2 cents.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2018
  9. mapdesigner

    mapdesigner Member

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    as if snipers knockback not enuff lol

    also this is ur thread. you need more than just 2 cents LOL
     
  10. Skurai

    Skurai Member

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    lol more than 2 cents. Well, snipers knockback is basis a % per hit. This is 100% knockback but only for targets at 300 range to push targets away so drow can use marksmanship agil boost.
     
  11. Daddy Sven

    Daddy Sven Moderator Staff Member

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    The problem is that it can still be exploited. With enough attack speed, you can attack move towards your target and consistently push them. Silence on the other hand is indeed short, but when you take into account that it also resets the target's casting animation and you have to spam the ability in order to cast in before getting silenced again, it can be more than troublesome vs certain heroes. I'm generally against "touch of death" scenarios like that, even if it's limited to a handful of heroes.
    I believe you're referring to his old aura. It triggered upon an ability being used and it was ridiculously imbalanced vs certain heroes.
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2018
  12. summer-penguin

    summer-penguin Moderator Staff Member

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    Old silencer must never be a parameter for any discussion on balance, Skurai.
    Only if you're trying to demonstrate opness.
    Alone, he was THE hero responsible for the implementation of bans. And he already was, back then, nerfed to the ground (as his Glaives no longer had the orb that applied a silence), but still...

    Back to the topic.
    Let's run some math.
    0.8 sec silence per hit.
    A level 21 Drow w/ a MoM, a Butter and a Manta Sytle, attacks once every 0.3 seconds.
    Drow's arrows travel w/ a 1250 projectile speed. They're fast.
    Late game, when your attackspeed gets serious, you'll perman silence the target you're attacking. Passively, and invariably.
    Unless you're caught, though now you can knock them back, or your target gets spell immune or pushed away.
    It is no chance based effect.
    You'll be doing that playing w/ one of the top 3 long ranged shooters in the game. And a carry, in terms of single target dmg output.
    That thing alone, a perman silence on the hero you're attacking, is no weak ability. Yes it can be countered, but that is definitely not a weak ability.

    Her current ASU, that apparently you're keeping, is no weak ability either.
    I don't particularly like it, nor it is one particularly good ASU, but it ain't no weak ability.

    That knockback passive, given her huge late game attackspeed, also is nothing weak.
    You are treating the fact that only when close-quarters it'll push others back as if it was a handicap, but it actually is the very opposite.
    Because naturally, you won't want your targets to be pushed away when they're not in a position to threat you. That'd be terribly counter productive.

    And upon those three very good boosts, you're also giving her a small improvement to Marksmanship's unreliability, & passive Frost Arrows.

    It's like THE most WTF ASU in the game.
    If we're going to have compound ASUs like that... Idk.
    I wouldn't like it.
    Imagine if Clock's ASU would reduce its cooldown to 10 seconds but also have Flare revealing invisible units, and Cogs being 100% impassable unless your enemy is spell immune. Plus something smaller, like... Idk... maybe adding two extra hits to destroy a Cog? (or something like that)

    Idk...
    I'm not digging it.
    Of course it'd be a huge boost to her concept, no doubt. But too op, Imo. And this composition of effects... Idk.
    When I first read it I thought that it'd be replacing the current. And adding the knockback effect only.
    And though that wouldn't be good enough, it'd be a short and straight boost to something, as ASUs should be.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2018
  13. Skurai

    Skurai Member

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    I see. I find it ok though if it pushes one hero in a direction like force staff slowly. U gotta go within 300 range and shoot. Shooting will be slow as u lose marksmanship attack speed and damage (within 300 range) and each shot moves target 150 range only. If u go within 300 range to shoot, u lose marksmanship agility, attacking slower and u gonna get hit by the enemy melee hero. That kinda slow damage, enemy can tp out slowly. Heroes like batrider ultimate and pudge hook will move enemies far more distance.

    After all there is near perm bash by melee heroes like faceless or troll. So, a ranged perm silence + slow isnt that bad. Furthermore, bkb counters this silence and slow. Teleport/force-staff also counters it. Bash isnt countered by bkb even. In a way, this is weaker. In most cases, she has to kill by attacking fast and killing before enemy can TP away.



    Hmmm it actually isnt that powerful. Maybe it looks strong due to multiple abilities but those are small abilities.

    The 0.8secs silence doesnt stack. The moment drow stops attacking target and move away for 0.8secs second, the target silence ends. By the time drow reach level 21, any basher on a melee will be stronger than this agha, disable-wise.

    When attacked by agha drow, u can teleport/force-staff out of it. U can also bkb out of it. It can be disabled on manta illusions. Furthermore, she is still very dead if 2 enemy heroes approach her lol. She cant push 2 away as she can only push away targets at 300 range. Enemy melee attack range is around 128 or so I believe.

    Heroes like PA or AM after her alone can still possibly kill her during the bkb period. Once bkb ends, the tables are turned. A strong AM with abyssal + manta will still blink, stun and murder her though. She is still paper after all.
    Hmmm also ranged heroes like sniper/etc wont be much affected by this. They r juz silenced. It wont stop their bkb/sb/tp/pike/etc.

    Noted all your comments.

    Just my 2 cents.
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2018
  14. summer-penguin

    summer-penguin Moderator Staff Member

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    I just think you need to stick to something. And make it work.
    You're seasoning it with every little thing you can. And it's an ASU. It shouldn't cover that many things.
    If you're seeing a design flaw, trying to fix it by boosting its every asset skyhigh, w/ three or four different and unrelated improvements stuffed into an ASU, ain't the way, in my opinion.
    And you cannot say that this, the whole thing, is little, simply 'cause there's counter to it... moving out via abilities, or spell immunity.
    Drow ain't even melee to suffer from being kited that effectively.
    Being balanced and being counterable are hardly the same thing.
    Her current ASU, that's less than half of what yours is... is shit but still viable.

    But that's alright, I've stated my case, and I'm dropping it.
    :D:
    Or I'll be repeating myself. (again...)
    I'll let others do the chat.
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2018
  15. Skurai

    Skurai Member

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    @summerpenguin
    I think u dont like my drow part;y because u have your own drow lol

    :(
     
  16. summer-penguin

    summer-penguin Moderator Staff Member

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    Absolutely not.
    If you check my first reply you'll see that I did like the knockback part.
    And though I found it meager, true, it is (no doubt) something fit, and Drow-ish.

    I even admited that the knockback and the silence on hit are effective ways to buff Drow's concept without shifting it in a slightly different, and (imo) extremely needed, direction.
    This affirmative alone express the merits of your suggestion.

    But nonetheless, all combined, it felt stuffed.
    ASUs do not usually behave like that, affecting small pieces of more than one ability, through a couple buffs and subsidiary mechanics that are unrelated one w/ each other.
    (like yours that's an improvement to Marksmanship / two extra passive abilities stuffed into Marksmanship (the split shot and the knockback) / two improvements to Frost Arrows, one minor and one that's an entirely new mechanic)
    I didn't like the looks of that.
    Could it work? Yes. But it didn't look ok, being like that.

    Tiny's old ASU did behave like that.
    And I was ok with Tiny's, tbh.
    But Tiny's was not nearly as op as this composition of yours. And Tiny's ASU use to behave as a clean buff, and not a fix, attempting to clip her concept's flaws and intended drawbacks.
    Though I do find both the knockback and the silence creative mechanics, I do not share your impression that they are small buffs.

    One thing is suggesting a remake to a hero you deem nearly impossible of being balanced w/ the assets that it currently has.
    Another is picking an Aghanim Scepter Upgrade that has a 62% winrate (not all that bad, if you think about it), that's also the 15th most common item built on a hero that has a 50% winrate, and buff it skyhigh... w/ a couple small buffs plus a couple new mechanics, each being better than the mechanic currently being used.

    My opinion has nothing to do w/ me having my own suggestion, Skurai.
    :no:

    In fact, and this really shows that your statement is not true, I am thinking about using the silence part of your suggestion as the ASU of mine (w/ your permission, of course).
    But only that part.
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2018
  17. hellkn

    hellkn Member

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    And how would be if you put a 20%/30%/40% chance to freeze (root, not stun) for 1 second with 50/75/100 extra damage from ASU instead of your Frost Arrows conversion into passive?
    She would be able to activate Frost Arrows like if not with ASU but also gain the ability to root enemies by chance on attacks, and also knockback enemies out of range so she gain Markmanship again.
     
  18. IHateLeavers

    IHateLeavers Member

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    It doesnt fix her problems. First of all, drow strats used to rely on drow maxing out aura so whole team or ranged heroes could benefit from bonus dmg and push early on, but her aura got trashed and meta became more aggressive. Drow strats pretty much doesnt happen nowadays because she does nothing early game and you have to worry about other heroes more. For example let say brood, if she gets picked against team that has no good aoe it's pretty much game over, she's gonna snowball and wreck faces. Brood is a hero that you always have to keep in mind.

    Drow on the other hand is just a ranged creep that give more gold. You can very easily kill her over and over again in lanning phase and after it. She needs so much protection that it pretty much limit amount of options that your support and roamer can use. If your roamer or support try to go away from protecting Drow shes gonna die even in 1vs1 situation against underlvled and underfarmed enemy.

    Drow has 0 armor, crap base dmg, no escape mechanism and shit ulti. All her dmg comes from auto-attack and even if she has 2-3x more networth than enemy hero, she will still die in 1vs1 without protection.

    In oder to make drow somehow viable again she needs one of the following:

    - her aura gets' a big buff, so it has more impact early game but drow still remain shit and needs protection in lanning phase and after it.
    or
    - Drow base stats gets buffed a lot and her frost arrow get additional bonus utility (like mana burn or maybe even steal small amount of gold, fixed value not % based), or her ulti stop disappearing whenever there's enemy nearby. This way she can be played 1vs1 mid for example, but her aura is useful only once she get a lot of items and lvls.


    Current meta is focused a lot about early game. This is why heroes like Gyro are so popular. You can leave Gyro alone in lane and you know that he has enough dmg to kill nearly every offlaner in 1vs1 scenario. This gives your support and roamer more freedom to gank enemy cores and cripple their farm while your carry still free farm. Then you snowball and often finish game at 20-25min mark.
     
  19. Skurai

    Skurai Member

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    Dude, I am just kidding lol. No need for the long post.
     
    summer-penguin likes this.
  20. Skurai

    Skurai Member

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    A big buff to her aura doesnt do anything but gives her more dmg. Drow is paper and meant to be paper, even in lane, as with heroes like snip.


    If her ulti doesnt disappear when enemy is close, that means it shouldnt give so much agil.

    This Agha solves 2 problems:

    1 - It lets marksmanship be more useful as enemy heroes can be pushed back.
    2- It protects against melee enemy heroes which she is weak against as she is paper.

    It does solve the problem. Drow has to play well though. Bad play by her and good play by enemies will still mean her death.