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7.00 Octarine Core

Discussion in 'Meta-Game Discussion' started by Blarrg, Dec 15, 2016.

  1. Blarrg

    Blarrg Member

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    This item has actually become an important 3-4th item on many many heroes. Heroes that have -X% cooldown on their trees benefit more form Octarine than ever. Since cooldown reductions stack additively, it has made a lot of abilities far more powerful. Batrider has infinite flying at 25, techies has 5 second cooldown mega range remote mines that do 750 damage, and the list goes on.

    I'm half expecting this item to become very popular, and possibly nerfed to work multiplicatively.
     
  2. GoD_Tyr

    GoD_Tyr Member

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    Yeah, it will probably be as old Bloodstone, nerfed to ground, then re-buffed to be sustainable item. The item price, aka addition of recipe will probably come.
     
    Sven2k likes this.
  3. Hemoxyte

    Hemoxyte Member

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    The nerf to mana regen is pretty harsh though, and its still a very expensive item, I don't think it will get much more popular than it is now.
     
    xXinvoker420Xx and Sven2k like this.
  4. Oesile

    Oesile Member

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    It should stack multiplicatively, I don't see why it would work the way it does. We also have a precedent for this, being arcane rune which stacks multiplicatively with Octarine core, so I personally suspect that this is a bug.
     
  5. Unfawkable

    Unfawkable Member

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    Are you sure? I could have sworn Arcane rune works additively.
     
  6. lovestep

    lovestep Member

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    With the game being so fast pace and 150 base gpm to everyone, you are going to start seeing this on supports 30 minutes into the game. Especially since you will need faster cds
     
  7. Anti-Xenophobe

    Anti-Xenophobe Member

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    It does, but it's still enough for cheese like perma-ulti Lycan.
     
  8. Monsterlord_2nd

    Monsterlord_2nd Moderator Staff Member

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    Holy shit.

    That has to be an oversight more than anything, surely.
     
  9. BornFromAGrave

    BornFromAGrave Member

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    Well... any +dmg is added as basedmg aswell. So i guess they cut the "basecd"
     
  10. Oesile

    Oesile Member

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    That's the way I remember it at least, and the wiki confirms this.
    • Stacks multiplicatively with the cooldown reduction of [​IMG] Arcane Rune.
    http://dota2.gamepedia.com/Octarine_Core
     
  11. xXinvoker420Xx

    xXinvoker420Xx Member

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    actually i think its a much worse item now that many heroes have cd reduction or even spell lifesteal talents case in point qop, you can choose either +90gpm at level 15 or you can choose 12% cdr, at 25 you can choose 70% spell lifesteal (1/5th for non heroes) or you can choose +35 int

    it is still good good though but less important than before imo, i honestly think that blood thorn is now a much more important item because of the prevalence of evasion talents
     
  12. Oesile

    Oesile Member

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    Addictive stacking makes cooldown reduction more powerful the more cooldown reduction you possess. CDR works like this in League of Legends and people either try to cap it (they have 40% CDR at max) or don't bother. 25% CDR vs 37% CDR means the talent makes for an increase of 48%, it's way better.
     
  13. Blarrg

    Blarrg Member

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    To add on to this, any spells that last a duration get a massive boost in their uptime.

    DP Ult CD = 145, Duration 35, Uptime% 24
    With Octarine...
    CD = 108.75, Duration 35, Uptime% 32 (This is a 33% boost in uptime)
    With Octarine + 10% CD from tree
    CD = 94.25, Duration 35, Uptime% 37 (50% boost in uptime)

    With Octarine + CD reduction talent, you've dropped your downtime from 110 seconds, to less than 60 seconds. Its almost impossible for the enemy to take advantage of a window so small in the lategame.
     
    Oesile likes this.
  14. Oesile

    Oesile Member

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    That's a valid point about the uptime. Abaddon has a 15% cooldown reduction talent for example, which gives his ultimate a 24 second cooldown with octarine which lasts for 6 seconds (7 with aghs). 18 seconds of downtime instead of 34, almost twice as good.
    Batrider gets permanent firefly with the +8 duration talent and octarine, and Arc Warden has a 12 second downtime on his ultimate, and a 65 second cooldown on both hands of midas.
    I've already seen clips of ember spirit permarooting people with octarine, the cdr talent and the +2 second duration on his root.
    You should never go octarine core on Broodmother probably, but now that her ult is undispellable and she has that cool 20% CDR talent she can enjoy a 10.75 second downtime on her ultimate, and webs that recharge in 22 seconds.
    There is also Rubick that can steal a spell with a long duration and keep it, such as Phantasm with Aghs or Chaotic Offering.
    The big winner is of course techies which can get a total of 50% cooldown reduction, which is insane on the hero.

    Either way if this much is intended, I still think that it should be changed to stack multiplicatively and that the CDR value from the talent should be buffed for consistency. This also has the side-effect of buffing them even if you don't get octarine but currently it just makes no sense for it to work this way.
     
  15. Hyperion1O1

    Hyperion1O1 Member

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    Ember's Chains with Octa is a death sentence for melee carries.
     
  16. Blamagenkind

    Blamagenkind Member

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    To be fair, Octarine is the only item that reduces cooldowns. If there were more items with CDR or if it stacked with itself I'd agree to make the stacking multiplicative. It's perfectly fine considering the cost.

    And it stacks multiplicatively with arcane runes, btw.
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2016
  17. Oesile

    Oesile Member

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    But it's inconsistent with how it interacted with other forms of CDR and does not work intuitively.
    What's probably happening is that both the talents and the octarine work off some kind of base cooldown, like say 100, so they both apply their CDR twice on that number.
    Besides, the item before was fine considering the cost. Heroes like DP already got Octarine core lategame.

    If it's not a bug and it's intended then it's fine I suppose because it can still be balanced, like everything else, but then it still does really encourage getting an Octarine Core on these heroes.
     
  18. BornFromAGrave

    BornFromAGrave Member

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    100-25-25=50 feels more intuitively then 100-25-25=56,25 imp. They question is, and i think thats the point of Blamagenkinds post: Is it possible to balance out CDR with the addivily stackig mechanic, because there are so few sources for that? Or do we need the more complicated multiplicative way that prevents 0CD by default and makes every additional source weaker and therefore OC less disireble on hero who already got CDR?
     
  19. Oesile

    Oesile Member

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    It's less intuitive because let's say you have a cooldown of 100 seconds and get the talent. It becomes a cd of 75. If you get an octarine, you should be getting the cooldown reduction for the 75 seconds cd no? Why is it you get to reduce the 100 second cooldown twice?
    75*0.75 = 50 does not feel intuitive at all.

    To me either way of looking at it can be fine, but I'd rather it be consistent. Either make arcane rune be additive too, or make it all multiplicative.
     
  20. Dr_JP

    Dr_JP Member

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    While you discuss that, next patch intelligence points will grant X% CDR attached.

    16 int = 1% spell dmg amplification is too low, it could easily be buffed to 12 int = 1% spell dmg amplification.

    Just wait for it!